From: "Skip Gundlach, Aboard S/Y Flying Pig, over Wifi"

To:
Subject: A wireless (no wires to the computer) wifi solution? (very
long)
Date: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 12:12 PM

I sent this to the Morgan sailnet list today; apologies to those un/dis

interested:

From: "Skip Gundlach, Aboard S/Y Flying Pig, over Wifi"

To: "Morgan"
Subject: [morgan] WIFI Solution
Date: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 12:05 PM

Skip,

When you get time, we are all waiting to find out what finally worked
for
the WIFI solution.

Thanks,

Jeff


" Meanwhile, my son solved the wifi dragon, and I'm on the phone and
the
internet wherever there's an open signal, such as is the case in the
yard,
wirelessly (no more USB or ethernet cable to the computer) - and so is
anyone in range of the AP setup here aboard..."


Hi, Jeff, and Group...

It's - very unfortunately - very convoluted to the non-network
engineer, and
not being one myself, I probably won't give a very good description of
it.
Further, I have yet to test it up the mast to see what really happens.
To
save those only casually interested, I'll give a précis, and then the
gory
details. I'll also present some alternatives at the end (those not
very
techy won't want to go there)

The system is a powered bridge and AP unit with a router in between,
all
connected with ethernet cable, but no wires to the computer. That the
router is a Vonage VoIP unit is a bonus. The bridge sees and talks to
the
shoreside AP, passes that info to the router, which passes it to the
AP,
which then talks to anyone who can hear it. That both are amplified
units
lets them reach farther on the outbound side, and both have high gain
antennas to hear distant points better. All are 12V. When all are
powered
up, you can connect a telephone line to the Vonage and it's the same as
it
would be at home; you talk on it with your own phone number, incoming
and
outgoing calls alike (caller ID will show your number; if you've got a
caller ID unit, it will show incoming caller ID).

That, believe it or not, is the short story.

The long story:

My quest began with a correspondent, usually right on, technically,
pointing
me to a Senao 2611CB3Plus AP/Bridge unit. He asserted that I should be
able
to put that at the top of the mast and it would essentially be a
repeater -
that is, it would talk to both the shore and me (and anyone else who
could
see the big stick antenna I'd use).

So, I called a vendor and described what I'd wanted to do. I wanted to
be
able to turn on my laptop and see distant shore points, select from
them
with my Windows Zero Configuration tool, all through this unit, which
I'd
have on top of the mast enclosed in a NEMA box I'd buy, powered with
12V. I
wanted to be the good guy and have that signal available to other
cruisers
anchored nearby as well (if I could hear it, they should be able to
hear it
as well).

The vendor replied that he had an external unit of the same thing,
could buy
the same antenna next door (Hypertech 8.5dBi stick was my antenna
choice),
but that I'd need something else as well, also with an antenna, as the
unit
(the bridge) would only talk to shore, not to me. However, it was 12V,
and
would I like a quote on a custom assembly of stuff to do the job?

Sure...

Not knowing squat, I didn't know to ask questions other than he said it

would work. I said OK, gave him my charge card number, and it It
arrived in
due course. Plugged it in, and was able to surf and mail. But I was
unable
to see, let alone select from, any other points (more below on why).
Worse,
the second unit was a Linksys wireless router, at 5V.

I called to complain about both the lack of identifiability and the
12V. He
said send it back, I'll send you something else. That something else
was
another Senao unit, at an additional doubling of the Linksys price.
However, that never worked - until now, but certainly not as specified,
even
now. But, it's at least do-able to surf and mail and telephone...

My problem with the units supplied, not identified in literally
hundreds of
hours of beating on them (well, trying everything as directed by the
seller,
and many other things recommended by other experts), was that the
bridge,
built to look for APs, of course, found one in the AP right next to it,
and
connected with its ethernet crossover cable. Naturally, that was the
strongest signal, and so they immediately started passing traffic back
and
forth, overwhelming both of them, leading to IP conflicts.

Configuration discussion: The units can be set into either bridge or
AP
mode via mouse button switch. They can be factory reset by hard button
push
(impossible up the mast, but you can start over if you get trapped in a

testing routine as I did, many times). Unpower/repower also resets,
but not
to factory default. They are addressable via web interface.

The bridge can be in point-point or point-multipoint mode. In
multipoint,
you leave the SSID section blank and it will scan for all available
APs,
showing the signal strength and encryption or not. You can choose from
any
of the available ones, put it in the SSID blank, and it will no longer
scan
or even show any other stations. These are "b" units; newer ones are
b/g
and sometimes also /a units, allowing a greater speed if it were
needed.
Aboard the boat, it's of no issue - until you have an AP which is
configured
to talk only to "g" units, which is part of what was driving me crazy.
The
open (not encrypted) point in the yard which had the strongest signal
and
which had been my salvation over my USB extension cable and desktop
unit, is
so configured. So, whenever I specified "sailing router" (the name
they'd
given their two routers in their offices, obviously aimed at sailors
for
free use), my 'b' unit would not even talk to it. This despite it
being
seen on the scan list. I couldn't figure it out, but one of the
correspondents in the alt.internet.wireless group figured that out (the
b vs
g issue). So, that must be the problem, as my setup is talking to (a
much
weaker signal, and well used, unfortunately, constraining bandwidth)
linksys, instead.

As mentioned, no amount of head scratching, telephone consultation,
email
correspondence, my doing stuff independently, or any other measures,
solved
the IP conflicts.

Meanwhile, in desperation, I started in on attempting to use just the
bridge
over ethernet to my computer. That, of course, required my being
connected
via wire, something I had been fighting for all this time. The only
way
these can be addressed, and therefore configured, is over a web
interface.
The only way that can happen is to have the unit connected to something
else
which has the same net class address (if you don't know what I mean
it's too
technical to get you up to speed - it took me months to "get it" -
sorry),
so I had to toggle back and forth between dhcp and specific addresses -

which meant typing in the address - including the "advanced" section to

allow the alternative addresses I was using other than factory default,
each
time I started over with trying to get it to work. I wasn't very happy

about that, either, but have that solved (see below).

Had I not been previously, over the desktop/usb unit, successfully
connecting, and, then, due to the 'g' issues above, not, connecting, to
the
"sailing router" my search might have been shorter, as I could probably
have
gone to linksys first, and succeeded there, only to have that conundrum
rear
its head later, making me think I had a broken unit. However, back to
the
wired-up bit.

I was able to scan for available APs when I had it connected to my
etheret
NIC, then go to a specific SSID. As above, the one I kept trying to
connect
always showed a fault. I didn't think to try Linksys. MANY
discussions on
the wireless group, via net and email with a couple, including one who
had
many installations using the exact same gear, failed to solve the
problem.
So, even though I was willing, if necessary, to live with having a
string
attached, and get nothing but the web in the end, I couldn't do even
that
(though if I'd gone to a 'b' enabled station, I could have, prolly).
Contrast that to, now, me doing this message, my wife across the salon
doing
her email on her own laptop, both of us wif, and being interrupted by a
call
on the POTS unit connected to the Vonage service - which is what I
wanted
all along...

So, back to the story. I put it all in a basket, thinking I'd tackle
it
again when I got home, during the two weeks or so that we were going to
be
there as Lydia's clock wound down at work. I never did, but when we
went to
*my* (we also did one at hers) family's goodbye party, my son the
network
engineer, and I, who had talked a bit about my problems before, got on
the
subject, again. We didn't get into it then, but a few days later,
while
Lydia was at a salon with her daughters, I went to his house, which is
massively set up for computer and network bashing.

We worked until 3 in the morning, but solved it. The
problems/solution(s)
we

If you have the units on the same net class, in order to be able to
see
both of them for configuration (the AP passes through to the bridge in
configuration; if you can't see the AP, you can't see the bridge), IP
conflicts arise.

If you have the bridge set to "any" SSID, it will set up a constant

traffic with the AP, creating IP conflicts and overload leading to no
communication.

Leaving the bridge in "any" will allow it to scan, but it will
associate the
strongest signal. That's fine if you're in an area with all open
sites, but
it you're in a marina, likely it may have a pay site; you can't look
for
others.

We had everything connected by independent ethernet lines - his
computer, my
computer, the AP, and the bridge. He monitored our traffic on his
computer.
In our testing, we were able to clearly see his wireless router and my
AP,
'boatAP'. We were able to scan or select the SSID on the bridge.
Whenever
we connected the two with the crossover cable, however, IP conflicts
arose.
We finally figured out the problem, as above. So, discussion ensued on
the
nature of it. Would a router solve the problem? I just happened to
have
one, taken out of my landside home, in the basket. Let's give it a
try.

That would give us some advantages. First, we'd be able to put in a
cable
to connect the Vonage unit, something I'd wanted to do for a long time.

It's a unit which you can take with you anywhere in the world, power it
up
with 12V or a voltage adapter and its wall-wart type power supply, and
connect it to an ethernet internet feed in a hotel, internet café, or
other
internet source, and be on the POTS network - call out or have calls to
you,
just as though you were at home (you'd have to carry a handset if you
weren't somewhere a US configured wired phone were available). We'd
also be
able to connect a printer, if we had one, and any other item, such as
another computer. That same access would allow me to configure either
the AP
or the bridge via an ethernet cable.

However, the AP and bridge would have to be on different net class
addresses
to avoid the IP conflicts. The router would handle the distribution of

different IPs from there.

In the course of digging it all out, he looked at the Vonage unit. I
turned
him on to it before, but he never really gave it a lot of thought, as
he
subscribed. Now, he did. To do what it has to in order to make it
happen
as part of your home network, perhaps this is, too, a router?

Looking up the specifics of my particular unit, several years old, on
the
net, disclosed that it was, indeed, a (very limited) router. It had a
specific address, of course, as well as a unique MAC, which, when you
connect it to an internet feed, lets Vonage address it, and your phone
number be active at that point. So, we powered it up, and entered the
address in the browser. Hey! There it is! You can't alter it, but
you can
see it!

Well...

Lets put the bridge on SSID 'david' (the home router) and the standard
net
class it came with and connect it via crossover to the WAN outlet. If
it's
a router, it should then direct the traffic to the LAN on some
non-standard
net class (most likely the same each time), connected to 'boatAP' and
see
what happens. No IP conflicts. HEY!! I'm surfing and mailing. It
works!

Plug in the POTS instrument. Dial up my cell phone, which rings,
showing my
home as the caller. Bingo.

So, believe it or not, that's the short story of the long story. There
were
5 hours in between that point. We reset the bridge to 'linksys', the
station I was succeeding with on the boat, on the presumption that it
would
find it again when I arrived, and put it away. When I arrived, I
connected
all three items together, installed the antennas and plugged all three
devices into AC. Dial tone and surf/mail was the result as soon as
they
powered up. So, despite my computer selecting "boatAP" I'm connected to

"linksys" - the AP locally that we'd selected above. I can't see it -
but
know it's there, because that's what I'd specified before I shut it
down.

What's wrong with this picture?

1) I can't choose via a configuration tool, among the available APs out

there
2) Those I can choose from can't be configured to 'g' only (unlikely to
be a
big deal in the cruising world, as only some business such as the one
I'd
gotten accustomed to would likely make that adjustment to their gear)
3) I have to plug the ethernet into my computer, with the NIC set for
the
netclass of the bridge, in order to interrogate and/or change the
bridge
info, something which may well be necessary each port, if there's a pay

service with a big mouth (lots of amplification, strongest signal);
otherwise I can just leave it blank ("any" SSID)
4) I have to bring stuff into the cabin
5) I have to make more than one power supply (though it would be useful
to
be able to unpower individual items, anyway)

So, I'm faced with having to make the crossover cable long enough to
reach
my computer from the top of the mast. If I have the crossover cable in
the
cabin, I may as well have the standard cable (to the AP) here, too.
And, if
I'm going to have a POTS unit connected to the Vonage, better to have
it
(the Vonage) in the cabin as well. Fortunately all these are 12V, so I
can
just power them off ship's power without having to use an inverter.

Since I'm going to have to unplug the cable from Vonage to use it on my

computer, it will have to be relatively accessible. I'll mount it on a
door
next to my hard drives and printer; when I open the door, the cable
will be
right there. I'll unplug it, put it in the NIC on my computer, check
to see
what's out there, set again, if needed, and return it to my WAN port on
the
Vonage. A dial tone will confirm my success.

To enable me to not have to constantly reconfigure the NIC, I have a
leftover NIC/Modem PCMCIA card from the old days when laptops didn't
have
built-in NICs which I'll use as my configuration tool; the computer's
NIC
will remain dhcp so I can do the test of the bridge (the NIC in dhcp
will
allow me to get an address from the chosen AP; if it succeeds I should
be
able to surf and mail - and after that proof, it's the same as an ISP
feed
as far as all the electronics are concerned).

I have not yet really investigated POE (Power Over Ethernet) but that
may be
the way I go, in order to minimize the wiring to the top. I should
have had
one included in my purchase from the vendor; that he didn't (the unit
I'd
called about had that in it) is just another indication of my
dissatisfaction with him (it's "him" because there's nobody else there
that
I can tell - he's always the one who answers the phone and mail [he's
not
responded to mail in the last year or so, though, so that may have
changed -
but he's the one answering the phone, still], leading me to believe
he's a
one-man shop). I don't know enough about POE to be dangerous as yet,
but
somehow the very thin lines of the ethernet cable are enough to carry
the
load needed for these units. I also don't know the actual load; the
wallwarts show 1A at 12V, but that's more likely the maximum it can
give,
not the actual load.

This is far from what I'd envisioned. However, with all the agony that

preceded it, this is nirvana. Before we shut it down for the morning
(3AM)
we made up the proper length crossover and standard cables to allow me
to
have the AP and bridge at mast top and the Vonage router at the nav. I
have
yet to haul it up the mast in a bucket to see what else is out there,
or
what changes in signal strength result. My antenna is a slight
downtilt,
and a relatively high gain; it will be interesting to see about the
improvement in signal, as well as the potential for loss of others as
the
skinny donut of the pattern goes up. Likewise, it will be interesting
to
see about the changes in signal strength of the AP; currently it's
right
over my head (fiberglass in the way, but not much) sitting on the
companionway doghouse, with a horizontal antenna. The expected AP
antenna
position would be vertical, under the NEMA, with the bridge 20" stick
out
the top, which, since the NEMA is cast aluminum, ought to minimize any
potential about signal interferance (though I can't imagine any, as
they're
right next to each other now, one hanging from the dodger and the other

sitting on the doghouse, with no issues).

So, more testing is ahead, but this system has been up and running
flawlessly for close to a week. Once I have it proven, I believe I'll
investigate a replacement for the bridge. The AP doesn't matter, as
11mps is
more than any cruiser group (me and any others together) is likely to
need,
and my wifi speaks 'b' - but something else for the shoreside, with 'g'

capability, might be a good idea.

Now for the commercial. My son did all this, on a practical level.
This is
NOT a plug-and-play, point and click solution. If you want consulting
help,
he's David Thorburn-Gundlach, . I don't know what
he
charges, but if I had to engage him, and had been able (in the same
area,
and he were available) it would have been an extremely good investment
on my
part compared to the circus which I'd performed before that point.

Secondly, I'll entertain offers on the unit I'm currently using as
bridge,
and antenna pigtail, which can be configured as an AP (there's a box at
the
bottom of the admin screen to change whichever it is to the other,
bridge to
ap or the other way).

Specifically, the pigtail is for N-female antenna, the usual one out
there,
but the other end is specific to the card which is part of the unit.
The
unit is a Senao 2611 CB3 Plus Deluxe (the deluxe means it can be ap or
bridge), 200mw amplification, or 23dBm gain, but in board form only -
no
case, no antenna. There's a part number which relates to that, without
the
pigtail, but I'm not sure what it is. If you do a search for the name
above, you'll find lots of vendors all with the exact same looking
website,
a Senao-provided mask, I expect. The shorty pigtail means it won't
lose
signal strength in going from the unit to the antenna as you'll have
with
longer coax runs. You can also download the owner's manual in PDF form
to
see what they're about.

The only reason I'd sell it is to buy a g-enabled unit. It could be
your
AP; you'd want to buy some other bridge and router. Or you could do
ethernet connection, as I was about to do...

Final commercial - if you'd like to do the Vonage thing, let me refer
you.
You get the first month free, and if you sign up and stay with them for
2
months, I get some freebie time, as well, if we do it that way. Vonage
gives
me unlimited calls (on the unlimited plan, $25/mo) to the US and
Canada, UK
(three calls to Lydia's mom yesterday), Ireland and 3 other European
countries. In your home, it backfeeds your POTS network and all the
phones
in the home ring just like with your regular supplier, if you want.
Here,
while we're currently the least expensive single-station cordless
WalMart
sells, we're doing a single point, multistation charger/handset,
cordless
setup, as it's not worth wiring for phone, though that would end the
requirement for AC power (at the expense of being tethered over the
freedom
of the cordless in the dink while we polish the side of the boat,
e.g.).

If you're still reading, you're as desperate as I was. There may be
plug
and play solutions but nobody I have encountered has found one. There
is an
all-in-one solution which is about 1800 bux, but I don't know if it's
plug
and play or - since it has a router in it - one must connect over
ethernet
to configure the bridge portion each time, as is the case here...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery/

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely
nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing
about in
boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never
get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to
do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

On 8 Aug 2006 10:00:25 -0700, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

From: "Skip Gundlach, Aboard S/Y Flying Pig, over Wifi"

To:
Subject: A wireless (no wires to the computer) wifi solution? (very
long)
Date: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 12:12 PM

I sent this to the Morgan sailnet list today; apologies to those un/dis

interested:

================

Thanks for sharing the solution, that is quite some saga.

I just replaced my 9 db vertical on the boat with a 15 db and it is a
very noticable improvement, at least sitting here at the dock. I'll
carry along the 9 db for awhile just in case there are issues when
anchored out.

Hi, Wayne, and group,

Wayne.B wrote:
On 8 Aug 2006 10:00:25 -0700, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

From: "Skip Gundlach, Aboard S/Y Flying Pig, over Wifi"

To:
Subject: A wireless (no wires to the computer) wifi solution? (very
long)
Date: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 12:12 PM

I sent this to the Morgan sailnet list today; apologies to those un/dis

interested:

================

Thanks for sharing the solution, that is quite some saga.

I just replaced my 9 db vertical on the boat with a 15 db and it is a
very noticable improvement, at least sitting here at the dock. I'll
carry along the 9 db for awhile just in case there are issues when
anchored out.

Do I remember properly that you're on coax to that antenna? If so,
you've lost a major portion of your signal.

The problem with the higher gain antenna will be its correspondingly
flatter donut, and every wave will make the painted part of the
geography shift.

OTOH, if you are successful with the higher gain antenna, I might look
at that, too, as changing it out would be pretty simple. It's an issue
right now because there are some bridges I might have to go under where
that stick would put me over 65' - but once in the Caribbean, of
course, there are none, and I could have a HF whip up there if I
wanted.

L8R

Skip

On 10 Aug 2006 06:37:09 -0700, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

Do I remember properly that you're on coax to that antenna? If so,
you've lost a major portion of your signal.

Yes, but it is low loss LMR400 and relatively short compared to going
up a sailboat mast, about 20 feet total, approx 2 db loss.

The problem with the higher gain antenna will be its correspondingly
flatter donut, and every wave will make the painted part of the
geography shift.

Yes, that's why I'm going to carry around the old 9 db antenna for a
while. We do not usually roll that much at anchor however assuming we
are in a protected location, and I think the 15 may work out OK. It
makes a very noticable difference here at the dock.

One way to avoid virtually all coax loss is to get a weather proof
amplifier and mount it just below the antenna. Here is a nice one
that includes a coax power injector:

http://pnt.zoovy.com/c=PLP0FzdVNH6Ga...oduct/24A1000E

or

http://tinyurl.com/mus3a