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Inverters & Laptops
It's my understanding that a person should never use a modified sinewave
inverter with a laptop, that we should always use pure sinewave inverters with laptops, as the modified sinewave units are harmful to the life of the laptop's battery. Question #1: Is this true? Question #2: How do I tell the difference? I have 2 inverters I use on my boat, each from a different manufacturer, and neither one says anything about the sinewave characteristics. |
Inverters & Laptops
In article ,
Floating Mind wrote: It's my understanding that a person should never use a modified sinewave inverter with a laptop, that we should always use pure sinewave inverters with laptops, as the modified sinewave units are harmful to the life of the laptop's battery. Question #1: Is this true? Short answer: no it is not true. Longer answer: Most, if not all, recent laptops use powerbricks that are of the switching type. You can check easily: if it accepts 90-250V 50-60Hz, it's a switching powersupply. Switching powersupplies don't care what wave form it is fed, so any inverter will do fine. Regards, ted |
Inverters & Laptops
#1: Not True. I think it's worth knowing if you have pure or modified sign wave for other reasons (microwave ovens for example need a lot more power under one vs the other), but for laptops it does not matter. #2: Check out the vendor's web site support area or call them. If they say pure sinewave, and there not boasting about it on their website or manuals as a feature of their inverter, I would be suspicious you got the correct answer. I power my laptop computer via my boats battery, saving a little bit of energy, plus I avoid generating annoying noise. I also power my TV and DVD thte same way, using DC to DC adapters ... http://www.powerstream.com/Produz10.htm The microwave still uses the inverter, but nothing else. The benefit was eliminating any noise from the audio output of the TV (in combination with using an RCA to RCA filter between DVD and TV, to deal with a ground feedback issue), and eliminating noise from the cabin (from the inverter, hum and/or fan) Dan Huntington, NY Floating Mind wrote: It's my understanding that a person should never use a modified sinewave inverter with a laptop, that we should always use pure sinewave inverters with laptops, as the modified sinewave units are harmful to the life of the laptop's battery. Question #1: Is this true? Question #2: How do I tell the difference? I have 2 inverters I use on my boat, each from a different manufacturer, and neither one says anything about the sinewave characteristics. |
Inverters & Laptops
My laptop is newer, less than 2 yrs old and I checked the power supply,
so all is good here. Thanx for the information both of you. Have a great weekend! |
Inverters & Laptops
Better to use a step up DC transformer - much more efficient and
compact!! |
Inverters & Laptops
Sea Jay wrote:
Better to use a step up DC transformer - much more efficient and compact!! A DC stepup transformer? If transformers worked with DC, Edison would have won instead of Westinghouse. krj |
Inverters & Laptops
Wrong term. A DC/DC converter is what he means. You can get an automobile
power supply brick for most laptops and they are far more efficient than an inverter and wall wart. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com "krj" wrote in message ... Sea Jay wrote: Better to use a step up DC transformer - much more efficient and compact!! A DC stepup transformer? If transformers worked with DC, Edison would have won instead of Westinghouse. krj |
Inverters & Laptops
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Inverters & Laptops
"Floating Mind" wrote in message ... It's my understanding that a person should never use a modified sinewave inverter with a laptop, that we should always use pure sinewave inverters with laptops, as the modified sinewave units are harmful to the life of the laptop's battery. Question #1: Is this true? Question #2: How do I tell the difference? I have 2 inverters I use on my boat, each from a different manufacturer, and neither one says anything about the sinewave characteristics. You might also consider purchasing a power brick for your laptop that runs directly from 12 volts. I have two of these from Lind Electronics, one for a Dell and one for a Panasonic. Each one is specifically designed for the particular laptop. Handy to have as I can recharge the laptop from the car's cigarette lighter socket or run the laptop in the car to use Microsoft Streets and Trips. |
Inverters & Laptops
You might also consider purchasing a power brick for your laptop that runs
directly from 12 volts. I have two of these from Lind Electronics, one for a Dell and one for a Panasonic. Each one is specifically designed for the particular laptop. Handy to have as I can recharge the laptop from the car's cigarette lighter socket or run the laptop in the car to use Microsoft Streets and Trips. The only downside to using a 12v powersupply is having to bring along another one for on-shore use with AC. But we've now got a pair of 12v adapters, one for hers and one for my laptop. Saves from having to fire up the generator. Also means we leave 'em on the boat so don't have to worry that the adapter didn't get brought along. For the on-shore use I got a 110v to 12v lighter socket adapter. Works well enough in a pinch. -Bill Kearney |
Inverters & Laptops
Bill,
I have to have a laptop with me to work on most NMEA trains that I service, so I found a Targus AMP10US for my old Compaq laptop. It can run from from almost anything that looks a lot like electicity. The only thing I have had to add was a cigarette lighter hole with aligator clips because many of the racing boats don't even have a place to charge a cell phone. Matt Colie Bill Kearney wrote: You might also consider purchasing a power brick for your laptop that runs directly from 12 volts. I have two of these from Lind Electronics, one for a Dell and one for a Panasonic. Each one is specifically designed for the particular laptop. Handy to have as I can recharge the laptop from the car's cigarette lighter socket or run the laptop in the car to use Microsoft Streets and Trips. The only downside to using a 12v powersupply is having to bring along another one for on-shore use with AC. But we've now got a pair of 12v adapters, one for hers and one for my laptop. Saves from having to fire up the generator. Also means we leave 'em on the boat so don't have to worry that the adapter didn't get brought along. For the on-shore use I got a 110v to 12v lighter socket adapter. Works well enough in a pinch. -Bill Kearney |
Inverters & Laptops
In article . com,
"Sea Jay" wrote: Better to use a step up DC transformer - much more efficient and compact!! there is no such thing as a "DC transformer"...... |
Inverters & Laptops
Sea Jay wrote: Better to use a step up DC transformer - much more efficient and compact!! Hmm. The DC-DC converter b393capt mentioned above is rated 88% efficient; a typical boat inverter is nearer 95% efficient when running a smallish load like a laptop. When the wall wart inefficiency is included, they are comparable, the DC-DC converter is not "much more efficient." |
Inverters & Laptops
Mark wrote:
Sea Jay wrote: Better to use a step up DC transformer - much more efficient and compact!! Hmm. The DC-DC converter b393capt mentioned above is rated 88% efficient; a typical boat inverter is nearer 95% efficient when running a smallish load like a laptop. When the wall wart inefficiency is included, they are comparable, the DC-DC converter is not "much more efficient." Nor are they very good at absorbing voltage spikes. |
Inverters & Laptops
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Inverters & Laptops
"sw" wrote in message . .. Do you think it's OK for a square wave inverter to feed a UPS that feeds a PC? I would really like to do that but was told by some one at APC it's a no no. My feeling was he had no idea and was just covering himself. Thanks Di second whats already been said here - you'd be fine. I have a small inverter that runs my notelbook, as well as a DC-DC converter for the same purpose. I cant remember which one is more efficient, but the DC-DC one i mainly use for flights and such because it can plug in on the plane. In the car, the inverter wins because it doesnt cause any interference with my stereo ;-) Shaun |
Inverters & Laptops
Shaun Van Poecke wrote:
"sw" wrote in message . .. Do you think it's OK for a square wave inverter to feed a UPS that feeds a PC? I would really like to do that but was told by some one at APC it's a no no. My feeling was he had no idea and was just covering himself. Thanks Di second whats already been said here - you'd be fine. I have a small inverter that runs my notelbook, as well as a DC-DC converter for the same purpose. I cant remember which one is more efficient, but the DC-DC one i mainly use for flights and such because it can plug in on the plane. In the car, the inverter wins because it doesnt cause any interference with my stereo ;-) Shaun I think some UPS's use a step-down transformer to get down to the battery voltage. A square wave inverter can wreak havoc with a transformer expecting 60 Hz AC. With a UPS, the PC is powered by 120 VAC that is generated from the battery voltage by an inverter. There is no problem powering a PC from an inverter, as Larry has made abundantly clear. There is very likely a problem powering a UPS from a square wave inverter. A sine wave inverter, OTOH, should cause no problems at all. Make sense? Good luck. Chuck ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
Inverters & Laptops
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Inverters & Laptops
"sw" wrote in
: Do you think it's OK for a square wave inverter to feed a UPS that feeds a PC? I would really like to do that but was told by some one at APC it's a no no. My feeling was he had no idea and was just covering himself. Thanks If you sold UPS products to make your living, would you want them to use just any ol' cheap inverter....or your geewhiz technological wonder? There aren't any "square wave inverters" left on the market that I know of. Manufacturing inverters with sine wave synthesis is just too cheap and easy now. I just bought a 750 watt sinewave Black & Decker from WalMart for $70! It will even crank an 8000 Btu Samsung air conditioner with its 1500 watt surge rating. It has three 30A fuses in parallel. (No, you can't aircondition your boat on a boat battery....maybe a submarine battery.) It doesn't even turn its fan on until the load gets over 150 watts, it's so efficient. Driving my 1.6A fridge and a few loads on my workbench, it hardly gets warm. The fan in the inverter turns on and off as the fridge cycles...letting me know when the beer is cold. ALL of these little cheap inverters over the power input demand of the laptop will run the laptop just fine and charge its battery. Mine charges in the car from a 175W inverter that cost me $20 on sale. Your PC is no exception, either. It also uses a switching power supply that works perfectly with a very wide range of input voltages from DC to high frequency AC. It matters not as the input is a rectifier feeding a big storage capacitor the switchers use power from to create the output. Everything is converted to SMOOTH DC at about 170VDC off the AC line, whatever that line is. Many switching power supplies are rated from 90VAC to 270VAC input at any line frequency of whatever nation you happen to plug it into, so the manufacturer can send any computer to any customer, no matter where he/she lives. AS a note, I'm using a large APC UPS to power the computers in my office. It provides smooth power and automatically shuts down Windoze before the battery goes dead if the power outage is elongated. That's the reason I bought it, not for its perfectly-smooth, xtal-regulated 60 Hz at 120VAC. There was an "electrical noise" that lasted 8 seconds the last time it switched on to protect the equipment, probably caused by the beer fridge or electric heater running off the same outlet its plugged into coming on simultaneously...??? Larry -- If the damned government isn't going to enforce immigration laws, can they at LEAST park an ICE paddy wagon in front of WalMart so I can find a parking place and make the checkout line SHORTER?! |
Inverters & Laptops
"Chuck Tribolet" wrote in message ... There's no excuse for using a square wave inverter these days. Modified sine wave inverters are cheap. sigh~ not everywhere in the world is as lucky as the USA ;-) here in australia we're still a bit backwards. small square wave inverters at 150watts start at $AU50, while something as exoting as a 1000watt square wave costs about AU$400. a sine wave 1000watt inverter costs about AU$800. Shaun |
Inverters & Laptops
"Shaun Van Poecke" wrote in news:TNtGh.6816
: a sine wave 1000watt inverter costs about AU$800 http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=5301540 $118 for 1200 watts....sine wave output. Walmart ships worldwide. 1200 watts - 2400 watts surge if you have heavy enough wires to a big battery. Does Walmart charge that much in Australia? Hmm....$US118 = $AU151. They're still probably going to hit you up for some hefty import fees and VAT to pay for the socialized meds, etc. Should still be much cheaper than $AU800! Larry -- If the damned government isn't going to enforce immigration laws, can they at LEAST park an ICE paddy wagon in front of WalMart so I can find a parking place and make the checkout line SHORTER?! |
Inverters & Laptops
Larry wrote:
"sw" wrote in : Do you think it's OK for a square wave inverter to feed a UPS that feeds a PC? I would really like to do that but was told by some one at APC it's a no no. My feeling was he had no idea and was just covering himself. Thanks If you sold UPS products to make your living, would you want them to use just any ol' cheap inverter....or your geewhiz technological wonder? There aren't any "square wave inverters" left on the market that I know of. Manufacturing inverters with sine wave synthesis is just too cheap and easy now. I just bought a 750 watt sinewave Black & Decker from WalMart for $70! It will even crank an 8000 Btu Samsung air conditioner with its 1500 watt surge rating. It has three 30A fuses in parallel. (No, you can't aircondition your boat on a boat battery....maybe a submarine battery.) It doesn't even turn its fan on until the load gets over 150 watts, it's so efficient. Driving my 1.6A fridge and a few loads on my workbench, it hardly gets warm. The fan in the inverter turns on and off as the fridge cycles...letting me know when the beer is cold. ALL of these little cheap inverters over the power input demand of the laptop will run the laptop just fine and charge its battery. Mine charges in the car from a 175W inverter that cost me $20 on sale. Your PC is no exception, either. It also uses a switching power supply that works perfectly with a very wide range of input voltages from DC to high frequency AC. It matters not as the input is a rectifier feeding a big storage capacitor the switchers use power from to create the output. Everything is converted to SMOOTH DC at about 170VDC off the AC line, whatever that line is. Many switching power supplies are rated from 90VAC to 270VAC input at any line frequency of whatever nation you happen to plug it into, so the manufacturer can send any computer to any customer, no matter where he/she lives. AS a note, I'm using a large APC UPS to power the computers in my office. It provides smooth power and automatically shuts down Windoze before the battery goes dead if the power outage is elongated. That's the reason I bought it, not for its perfectly-smooth, xtal-regulated 60 Hz at 120VAC. There was an "electrical noise" that lasted 8 seconds the last time it switched on to protect the equipment, probably caused by the beer fridge or electric heater running off the same outlet its plugged into coming on simultaneously...??? Larry I found that a Zantrex "modified sine wave", really a modified square wave inverter, would not run a Sears 115v input NiCad battery charger for a 19.2v drill until I built a low pass filter for the inverter. Dick, Nonsuch 26 |
Inverters & Laptops
Hmm....$US118 = $AU151. They're still probably going to hit you up for some hefty import fees and VAT to pay for the socialized meds, etc. When you reach 65, socialized meds look very attractive! :?) G |
Inverters & Laptops
"Larry" wrote in message ... "Shaun Van Poecke" wrote in news:TNtGh.6816 : a sine wave 1000watt inverter costs about AU$800 http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=5301540 $118 for 1200 watts....sine wave output. Walmart ships worldwide. 1200 watts - 2400 watts surge if you have heavy enough wires to a big battery. Does Walmart charge that much in Australia? Hmm....$US118 = $AU151. They're still probably going to hit you up for some hefty import fees and VAT to pay for the socialized meds, etc. Should still be much cheaper than $AU800! you guys are on 110volts over there though right? Shaun |
Inverters & Laptops
Shaun Van Poecke wrote:
"Larry" wrote in message ... "Shaun Van Poecke" wrote in news:TNtGh.6816 : a sine wave 1000watt inverter costs about AU$800 http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=5301540 $118 for 1200 watts....sine wave output. Walmart ships worldwide. 1200 watts - 2400 watts surge if you have heavy enough wires to a big battery. Does Walmart charge that much in Australia? Hmm....$US118 = $AU151. They're still probably going to hit you up for some hefty import fees and VAT to pay for the socialized meds, etc. Should still be much cheaper than $AU800! you guys are on 110volts over there though right? Shaun No we are on 240vac 50hz that makes it very awkward to get items at your cheaper prices same goes for the nice little honda generators that you get for about $400 usd the same unit here is near $2000 cry.....sigh shaun not the OP |
Inverters & Laptops
I use for a couple years a laptop on my boat. All what one needs is an adaptor/ converter to 12 V, works perfectly I would not bather with an inverter On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:47:26 +0900, shaun wrote: Shaun Van Poecke wrote: "Larry" wrote in message ... "Shaun Van Poecke" wrote in news:TNtGh.6816 : a sine wave 1000watt inverter costs about AU$800 http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=5301540 $118 for 1200 watts....sine wave output. Walmart ships worldwide. 1200 watts - 2400 watts surge if you have heavy enough wires to a big battery. Does Walmart charge that much in Australia? Hmm....$US118 = $AU151. They're still probably going to hit you up for some hefty import fees and VAT to pay for the socialized meds, etc. Should still be much cheaper than $AU800! you guys are on 110volts over there though right? Shaun No we are on 240vac 50hz that makes it very awkward to get items at your cheaper prices same goes for the nice little honda generators that you get for about $400 usd the same unit here is near $2000 cry.....sigh shaun not the OP |
Inverters & Laptops
shaun wrote:
No we are on 240vac 50hz So when the UK went from 240V to 230V a few years ago Australia didn't do the same? I believe the expression over there is "bummer"? -- Kees |
Inverters & Laptops
JohnW wrote:
Kees Verruijt, in article 45ec4245$0$321 , says... shaun wrote: No we are on 240vac 50hz So when the UK went from 240V to 230V a few years ago Australia didn't do the same? I believe the expression over there is "bummer"? Actually the UK didn't change - we altered the specs :-) Instead of changing the voltage down to 230v, the acceptable range of voltages Europe wide was changed from +/-6% to +10%-6% so our 240v was included in the European-wide specs. Rules are meant to be modified where necessary :-) Ah. Wikipedia has this to say: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring_(UK) " Since 1960, the supply voltage in Great Britain in domestic premises has been 240 V AC (rms) at 50 Hz while in Northern Ireland it was 220 V. In 1988, a Europe-wide agreement was reached to change the various national voltages, which ranged at the time from 220 V to 240 V, to a common European standard of 230 V (CENELEC Harmonization Document HD 472 S1:1988). As a result, the standard nominal supply voltage in domestic single-phase 50 Hz installations in the UK has been 230 V AC (rms) since 1 January 1995 (Electricity Supply Regulations, SI 1994, No. 3021). However, as an interim measure, electricity suppliers can work with an asymmetric voltage tolerance of 230 V +10%/−6% (216.2 V to 253 V). This was supposed to be widened to 230 V ±10% (207 V to 253 V), but the time of this change has been put back repeatedly and currently sits in 2008 (BS 7697). The old standard was 240 V ±6% (225.6 V to 254.4 V), which is mostly contained within the new range, and so in practice suppliers have had no reason to actually change voltages. The continued deviation in the UK from the harmonised European voltage has been criticised in particular by light bulb manufacturers, who require tighter voltage tolerances to optimise the operating temperature and lifetime of their products, and who currently have to continue producing separate 230 V and 240 V versions. " Maybe that is why *Australia* is banning lightbulbs in a few years :-) so they can then change the supply voltage !!! (Sorry for drifting off course here, couldn't resist!) |
Inverters & Laptops
"Shaun Van Poecke" wrote in news:OvRGh.7507
: you guys are on 110volts over there though right? Shaun Oh, oh....I forgot....Yes, everything's 115VAC 60 Hz. Sorry I didn't think of that. Larry -- Have a little fun in the checkout line.... Ask the nearest American, "Did you see the ICE agents chasing those Mexicans out the back door?" ....Shortens that checkout line right up...(c; |
Inverters & Laptops
Does Walmart charge that much in Australia?
Thankfully, we don't have WalMart in Australia at this time. (at least as far as I know we don't) |
Inverters & Laptops
"Hobbs" wrote in
: Thankfully, we don't have WalMart in Australia at this time. (at least as far as I know we don't) No wonder prices are so high! Larry -- Have a little fun in the checkout line.... Ask the nearest American, "Did you see the ICE agents chasing those Mexicans out the back door?" ....Shortens that checkout line right up...(c; |
Inverters & Laptops
Larry wrote:
"Hobbs" wrote in : Thankfully, we don't have WalMart in Australia at this time. (at least as far as I know we don't) No wonder prices are so high! Larry And the wages! -- Kees |
Inverters & Laptops
I didn't say true sine wave, I said modified sine wave.
I can't remember the last time I saw a square wave inverter for sale. With digital control, modified sine wave is ASMOP (A Simple Matter Of Programming). A square wave inverter goes to +120V (or whatever) for 1/120 second, then to -120V (or ...) for 1/120 second. A modified sine wave inverter goes to +120V for a bit less than 1/120 second, then to zero for a bit, then to -120V for a bit less than 1/120 second, then to zero for a bit. The net is that the area under the curve is the same as a sine wave. (Note: the above assume 60Hz. at 50Hz it would be 1/100 second). West Marine (they ship international) has a 700W continuous, 1800W surge modified sine wave inverter for US$69.99 As I said, no excuse for a square wave inverter these days. "Shaun Van Poecke" wrote in message ... "Chuck Tribolet" wrote in message ... There's no excuse for using a square wave inverter these days. Modified sine wave inverters are cheap. sigh~ not everywhere in the world is as lucky as the USA ;-) here in australia we're still a bit backwards. small square wave inverters at 150watts start at $AU50, while something as exoting as a 1000watt square wave costs about AU$400. a sine wave 1000watt inverter costs about AU$800. Shaun |
Inverters & Laptops
On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:14:11 -0800, "Chuck Tribolet"
wrote: I didn't say true sine wave, I said modified sine wave. I can't remember the last time I saw a square wave inverter for sale. With digital control, modified sine wave is ASMOP (A Simple Matter Of Programming). A square wave inverter goes to +120V (or whatever) for 1/120 second, then to -120V (or ...) for 1/120 second. A modified sine wave inverter goes to +120V for a bit less than 1/120 second, then to zero for a bit, then to -120V for a bit less than 1/120 second, then to zero for a bit. The net is that the area under the curve is the same as a sine wave. (Note: the above assume 60Hz. at 50Hz it would be 1/100 second). I must admit that I have always felt that the above should be called "Modified square wave" as its resemblance to a pure sine wave is zero! However that terminology would probably reduce sales. -- Richard Nb "Pound Eater" Parkend G+S "Governments are like Nappies, they should be changed often." (For the same reason) |
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