On 30 May 2007 05:48:28 -0700, b393capt
wrote:

Also ... how about the math. A 50 foot boat has got to cost you,
including depreciation, insurance, yard services, wear and tear
(corrosion) of boat and electronics even when not moving, of upward of
$50,000 a year. If you have 20 opportunities to go boating each year
(due to weather, hurricane season, wife needs you to do work around
the house, kids have soccer, etc.), each weekend you loose is worth
$2,500. Why not cut your losses and get it taken care of by a pro?

Your overall number of $50K/yr is in the ball park but my situation is
different. Being retired I have a lot of time for both boating, and
working on the boat. It's docked at the house so access is quick and
easy. In order to keep costs under control I try to do as much of the
boat maintenance as I'm capable of. Diesel engines, generators and
hydraulic systems are totally beyond my expertise but electrical
systems and electronics are areas where I have some experience, not
necessarily boat experience, but well grounded in the fundamentals.
Past projects have turned out well and I'm sure this one will also.

If I called in an "expert" at $85/hr for everything that needed to be
done on the boat, my annual maintenance budget would be at least
double. That's why people come to these internet forums, to expand
their knowledge, and help others do the same.

On May 30, 7:55 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On 30 May 2007 05:48:28 -0700, b393capt
wrote:

Also ... how about the math. A 50 foot boat has got to cost you,
including depreciation, insurance, yard services, wear and tear
(corrosion) of boat and electronics even when not moving, of upward of
$50,000 a year. If you have 20 opportunities to go boating each year
(due to weather, hurricane season, wife needs you to do work around
the house, kids have soccer, etc.), each weekend you loose is worth
$2,500. Why not cut your losses and get it taken care of by a pro?

Your overall number of $50K/yr is in the ball park but my situation is
different. Being retired I have a lot of time for both boating, and
working on the boat. It's docked at the house so access is quick and
easy. In order to keep costs under control I try to do as much of the
boat maintenance as I'm capable of. Diesel engines, generators and
hydraulic systems are totally beyond my expertise but electrical
systems and electronics are areas where I have some experience, not
necessarily boat experience, but well grounded in the fundamentals.
Past projects have turned out well and I'm sure this one will also.

If I called in an "expert" at $85/hr for everything that needed to be
done on the boat, my annual maintenance budget would be at least
double. That's why people come to these internet forums, to expand
their knowledge, and help others do the same.

I can appreciate that, but if seems like A/C systems should be in that
list too just before or after diesel's.

Unlike shore based systems, in marine you have issues of D/C, A/C,
lightening protection, and corrosion all intertwined and various trade-
off decisions made on a case by case basis with each model boat. Short
of a written description from the boat designer about his decisions,
an accurate schematic, and a list of changes made since production ...
it's going to be pretty difficult to give us the information we need
to assist you.

At least with a diesel or generator, you have thousands of people with
the same engine who can give you sound advice. And, in general, when
it's working correct it's pretty easy to realize that (even for people
without a gift for it). With A/C power, it can appear to work, while
silently corroding metal surfaces under your boat, boats nearby, or
electrically shock occupants or people underwater without tripping
breakers or fuses at all.

Recently I took to looking at my own boat's electrical system, after
having a zinc disinegrate, and having a real hard time finding useful
information about the decisions and tradeoff's beneteau made in my
boats design, and then determining if I have a problem or is the cause
another boat in the marina. There might just not be an answer that
dosn't involve taking measurements of other boats as well. I just
cannot see, in isolation, how your going to know when your "done" with
your project, unlike a diesel engine where you can be pretty sure the
mechanic did the job well.

On 30 May 2007 17:55:06 -0700, b393capt
wrote:

I just
cannot see, in isolation, how your going to know when your "done" with
your project, unlike a diesel engine where you can be pretty sure the
mechanic did the job well.

With all due respect, you are long on criticism and short on
suggestions.

I'll be happy if I can:

1. Locate the cause or causes of the neutral wire to green wire low
resistance.

2. Eliminate the apparent neutral wire leakage/imbalance (hopefully as
a side benefit of #1).

3. Understand the overall AC wiring scheme including the locations of
the neutral bus and green wire bus and how they relate to the wire
coding scheme.

4. Get the green wire bus properly grounded.

5. Install working GFIs where needed (galley and heads).

6. Verify that all loads and branch circuits are properly connected.

Any other suggestions?

On May 30, 12:48 pm, b393capt wrote:
..

Also ... how about the math. A 50 foot boat has got to cost you,
including depreciation, insurance, yard services, wear and tear
(corrosion) of boat and electronics even when not moving, of upward of
$50,000 a year.
WOW

With all due respect, you are long on criticism and short on
suggestions.

I'll be happy if I can:

1. Locate the cause or causes of the neutral wire to green wire low
resistance.
From what information have you posted that any of us could begin to
post helpful information on this ?


2. Eliminate the apparent neutral wire leakage/imbalance (hopefully as
a side benefit of #1).

I am not convinced there is an inbalance based on the readings from a
$50 radio shack ammeter, that is subject to picking up magnetic fields
from adjacent wires that are not passing inside the clamp. What did
you read exactly? Did it change as you changed the position of the
ammeter (e.g. rotate 45, then 90 degrees) ?

3. Understand the overall AC wiring scheme including the locations of
the neutral bus and green wire bus and how they relate to the wire
coding scheme.

From what information ?

4. Get the green wire bus properly grounded.

From what information ?

5. Install working GFIs where needed (galley and heads).

This is extremely easy,

6. Verify that all loads and branch circuits are properly connected.

Any other suggestions?

On May 31, 10:54 pm, b393capt wrote:
With all due respect, you are long on criticism and short on
suggestions.

I'll be happy if I can:

1. Locate the cause or causes of the neutral wire to green wire low
resistance.
From what information have you posted that any of us could begin to

post helpful information on this ?

2. Eliminate the apparent neutral wire leakage/imbalance (hopefully as
a side benefit of #1).

I am not convinced there is an inbalance based on the readings from a
$50 radio shack ammeter, that is subject to picking up magnetic fields
from adjacent wires that are not passing inside the clamp. What did
you read exactly? Did it change as you changed the position of the
ammeter (e.g. rotate 45, then 90 degrees) ?

3. Understand the overall AC wiring scheme including the locations of
the neutral bus and green wire bus and how they relate to the wire
coding scheme.
From what information ?
4. Get the green wire bus properly grounded.
From what information ?
5. Install working GFIs where needed (galley and heads).

This is extremely easy,



6. Verify that all loads and branch circuits are properly connected.

Any other suggestions?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wayne,

I am curious as to what you decided to do.

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:55:19 -0000, b393capt
wrote:

I am curious as to what you decided to do

There are two kinds of unfinished projects on a boat:

Winter projects and summer projects.

Winter projects are those that did not get done in the summer, and
summer projects are those that did not get done in the winter.

Right now we are looking at a winter project.

Next winter.