"You" schreef in bericht
...
In article ,
"Cole Maze" wrote:

I do not understand this policy of Navionics, after all I own the chart
by
having payed for it, and I do not understand that they have the right of
destroying a thing that you own. I do not know if they have a legal
right to
do this, but to me it feels like a criminal act.

Best you go back and READ the User License that came with your Navionics
Software.... You did NOT buy the Charts, or the Software to use them.
What you bought is a "License" to use them, and Navionics plainly states
that they still OWN all the Rights, but License you as a User to USE
their Software, as per the User License. Your Violation of the User
License. may constitute a Civil Action that Navionics could bring against
you, if they so choose. It is all there in the Fine Print, that you
obviously never READ.......
Sure, you have a point here. I indeed never read the fine print. I just
bought a chip with a chart on it for $300, expecting to be able to use it on
board, like I use to do with paper charts. If Navionics not sold me the
_chart_ but just the license to use it, I still believe they have no legal
right to destroy it thereby making it impossible to use the license granted.
Anyway, I admit, it was stupid to not read the license terms before using
it, but then I doubt if there are many people who extensively read the
license terms of any software before using it.

"Geoff Schultz" schreef in bericht
.. .
Jack Erbes wrote in
:

Cole Maze wrote:
snip
Ever tried to make a personal copy of the Navionics Gold charts?
I did, to find that the Navionics software had destroyed the original
chart automatically and without warning. Although there is a warning
on the package saying that copying is not allowed, I did not expect
it to mean that it is was also if you make a copy for your self as a
back-up. After all, these charts cost a fortune ($300) and it seems
prudent to make a copy in case you loose the original.

What kind of media was that on? And what hardware were you using to
try to copy them? Those are available on SD, MMC, NavChart, or
Compact Flash. The NavChart is the Navionics proprietary memory
cartridge.

If there was write protect tab on the memory card, I'd think that may
have prevented that from happening.

Can you normally write anything to the card that was erased? Like
waypoints and routes?

Did you ask Navionics if that was a normal behavior?

Jack

I unfortunately made the mistake of placing a Navionics CF chart into my
laptop when I was having problems with my chartplotter. The
chartplotter wasn't able to see the chip and I wanted to know if the
chip was bad. The problem ended up being with the chart plotter and the
chip was OK. Unfortunately that rendered the chip unusable and it now
sits on my desk at home instead of being on the boat where it belongs.
It cost me $200 to replace it.

The CF chips aren't anything special. They're SanDisk 64 MB chips that
have a special format applied to them that copy programs can't
duplicate. I tried to figure out how to duplicate my chips but was
unable to figure out how to do it (and I spent a lot of time trying.) I
have dual chartplotters on board for backup, both which use Navionics
chips, and I want to have a backup of the charts too.

What appears to happen is that when you insert the chip into your
computer, it gets "mounted" and that writes a file header. This
indicates to the software in the chart plotter that the chip has been
loaded into a PC and this disables the use of the chip.

I did never insert the chip in a PC. I just left it in the primary slot of
my chart plotter. I inserted a blank SD card in the second slot of the
plotter and used the backup function of the plotter to backup the files.
After that the original charts turned out to be destroyed.


I fail to understand why Navionics implemented this behavior. I
personally feel that they should be forced to abandon this practice.
Implementing an anti-copy system is fine, but disabling chips due to
someone simply putting them into a PC is just wrong.

Cannot agree more. Either it should be allowed to make at least one copy or
they should develop some kind of policy to replace lost or damaged chips for
free or to minimal cost.

Cole.

Thank you all for this discussion. It has just caused me to cross
Navionics off my list of potential suppliers. With the event
descriptions as discussed, any of with could happen in the course of
trying to deal with other issues, can destroy the information that is
not acceptable to me and I will let others know also.
Matt Colie
Yachtsman's Technical Support

Cole Maze wrote:
"You" schreef in bericht
...
In article ,
"Cole Maze" wrote:

I do not understand this policy of Navionics, after all I own the chart
by
having payed for it, and I do not understand that they have the right of
destroying a thing that you own. I do not know if they have a legal
right to
do this, but to me it feels like a criminal act.
Best you go back and READ the User License that came with your Navionics
Software.... You did NOT buy the Charts, or the Software to use them.
What you bought is a "License" to use them, and Navionics plainly states
that they still OWN all the Rights, but License you as a User to USE
their Software, as per the User License. Your Violation of the User
License. may constitute a Civil Action that Navionics could bring against
you, if they so choose. It is all there in the Fine Print, that you
obviously never READ.......
Sure, you have a point here. I indeed never read the fine print. I just
bought a chip with a chart on it for $300, expecting to be able to use it on
board, like I use to do with paper charts. If Navionics not sold me the
_chart_ but just the license to use it, I still believe they have no legal
right to destroy it thereby making it impossible to use the license granted.
Anyway, I admit, it was stupid to not read the license terms before using
it, but then I doubt if there are many people who extensively read the
license terms of any software before using it.

You wrote in
:

In article ,
"Cole Maze" wrote:

I do not understand this policy of Navionics, after all I own the
chart by having payed for it, and I do not understand that they have
the right of destroying a thing that you own. I do not know if they
have a legal right to do this, but to me it feels like a criminal
act.

Best you go back and READ the User License that came with your
Navionics Software.... You did NOT buy the Charts, or the Software to
use them. What you bought is a "License" to use them, and Navionics
plainly states that they still OWN all the Rights, but License you as
a User to USE their Software, as per the User License. Your Violation
of the User License. may constitute a Civil Action that Navionics
could bring against you, if they so choose. It is all there in the
Fine Print, that you obviously never READ.......

I have the case that came with the chart chip and it says nothing of the
sort. It does have a warning that placing it in a PC will "damage the
chart data and render the card useless."

That's great, but I didn't have the case on the boat and there's nothing
on the chip to warn me about this. I had purchased the chip about 2
years prior and had forgotten about the warning. I was at sea on a 3
day passage when the chart plotter failed and I was attempting to
determine where the failure was. I didn't expect that simply placing
the chip into the PC would cause it to be rendered useless.

No chart data gets destroyed. All that changes is a "last accessed"
date in a directory and that changes a checksum. Navionics supplies the
software to access their charts to the vendors who utilize their chips.
This software see the"bad" checksum and renders the chip unusable. As
I've said, by software write-locking the chip reader, I can use this
chip in any PC.

There's no license that states that I don't own the charts that I
purchased on the chip. They sell a reader that allows you to utilize
their chips on a PC. The fact that they disable the chip unless you use
their device feels very wrong to me.

And ", tell me that you read the chart licensing
agreements when you were picking a chartplotter. Yeah, sure...And why
are hiding who you are?

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Geoff Schultz wrote:
snip
I fail to understand why Navionics implemented this behavior. I
personally feel that they should be forced to abandon this practice.
Implementing an anti-copy system is fine, but disabling chips due to
someone simply putting them into a PC is just wrong.

I agree with both of you guys, this is a stupid thing for them to do.

The Magellan and Garmin marine charting that comes on SD or microSD
cards is locked to the serial number of the memory card. And that is
Navionics data by the way.

Every memory card has an embedded serial number and that number cannot
be changed. So if you buy a card with the mapping preloaded there is
something in the mapping file(s?) that will let a GPS receiver determine
if it is on the right card.

I'm using the Garmin BlueChart on a handheld. Navionics has great
charting, arguably the best, but what a strange company. They are hard
to communicate with and talking to them it sounds like some kind of fly
by night operation being run out a garage somewhere. They are rude to
talk to and the first answer to any question is to talk to the dealer
you bought it from.

The Navionics web site has been down or partially down for the last few
days or week or so. I've been trying to look at something there and get
the home page occasionally but get page not found errors for anything
beyond that. Maybe they turn it off on weekends?

Jack

Hello Atlas,

Great Peio!! I had a go with the utility but the "Geodetic Datum" list is
missing my current chart set "Rome 1940"..... what can I do?

Don't you have any shift indication on your paper map : I mean some
offset in minutes between Rome 1940 datum and WGS84.
Remember : the map also needs to be in Mercator projection.
Maybe a version 2 of RasterChart2BSB in the future with possibilities
of converting both original projection and datum in Mercator/WGS84...

Also I don't know what to set in the "Sounding Datum"
The tidal datum to which soundings and drying heights on a chart are
referred. Often shortened to "chart datum" when it is clear that
reference is not being made to a horizontal datum. Chart sounding
datums are also used as reference for heights (lighthouses, mountains,
bridges).
To sum up, just an indication set in the header of your .kap file.

Best regards.

--
Peio Elissalde
Magic Instinct Software

I don't use BSB charts, but they are there if anyone wants them. Also, if
my
neighbour offers me a copy of some well-known software, and I offer him a
copy of another application in return for his generosity, I don't regard
myself as having "stolen" anything.

No, that's the both of you commiting theft. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Perhaps if you spent some time studying the P&L accounts of the leading
software companies, you would see what I mean.

I'm well aquainted with accounting, and copyright law. Apparently you're
not.

BTW I don't use E-Mule, but millions do.

Sure you don't...

Just in case you missed the original post, scanning copyright media is
also
stealing, as is hitting the Prt Scr key on your keypad in certain
circumstances. Perhaps we should all sue the hardware manufacturers who
invented and marketed the CD/DVD-copying devices to the consumer public?

Trying to deflect the argument doesn't justify your position. It's wrong to
steal software, no matter how you try to justify it.

How about suing NOAA for releasing all these vector and raster charts of
the
US coastline worldwide, surely they must be somebody's intellectual
property? Why should a BSB chart of the Eastern Med be so different? Don't
we all pay taxes?

Ah, here you reveal your ignorance of geo-data. In the US we're fortunate
to have very accessible and largely 'free' geo-data like maps. In other
countries that's not the case. They're often still charged QUITE a lot of
money for even the most basic of geo-data. Still, even that doesn't justify
stealing someone's digital format of them. That's the arrangement the
"owners" of that data have made, but that's a matter for the citizens of
those countries to rectify. The Europeans seem quite backward in getting a
grip on this.

So this is my warning to you: never try to make a copy of a Navionics
chart.
I do not understand this policy of Navionics, after all I own the chart by
having payed for it, and I do not understand that they have the right of
destroying a thing that you own. I do not know if they have a legal right
to
do this, but to me it feels like a criminal act.

You don't "own" anything. What you bought was a license to use the data on
that card. It's a subtle but important difference. As to Navionics
policies, I agree they're really idiots.

Bill Kearney wrote:
So this is my warning to you: never try to make a copy of a Navionics
chart.
I do not understand this policy of Navionics, after all I own the
chart by having payed for it, and I do not understand that they have
the right of destroying a thing that you own. I do not know if they
have a legal right to
do this, but to me it feels like a criminal act.

You don't "own" anything. What you bought was a license to use the
data on that card. It's a subtle but important difference. As to
Navionics policies, I agree they're really idiots.

Navionics and Garmin Bluecharts are one and the same. The way in which the
two market and protect their virtually identical data (charts) is where the
difference lies.

This leaves one wondering as to exactly where these excellent marine charts
originated. Indeed is any graphics software original these days, or are we
the victims of one giant marketing scam, with little, if any, original work
being produced?

If I have a medical condition, I can download countless thousands of
articles from the Web which will explain it's causes and effects, and
perhaps suggest a cure. All free, gratis, and for nothing.

But if I seek to use that same facility to download a marine chart, there
are few sites which can oblige. Indeed the NOAA site is the only one I can
bring to mind, and it's charts are restricted to the US coastline, (for the
moment!). Whether in the interests of safety at sea, or simply the
"right-to-know" syndrome. NOAA are doing the US mariner, amateur or
professional, a great favour.

Digital charts are a by-product of the marine digital hardware industry, no
doubt a very lucrative by-product, judging by the extreme lengths the
various companies go to to protect their software from copying, etc.

It seems to me that Microsoft are constantly being accused of protectionism,
but other giant corporations are allowed to get away scot-free. Maybe size
really matters these days.

Without GPS, electronic charts would be pretty useless, so do we thank the
US Airforce for the present situation?


Dennis.