"Doug Meredith" wrote in message
...

"George Mills" wrote in message
...

Then I looked at a used MC and said yes, now this is solid boat.
I wanted a 20 foot bowrider so I ended up with a Tige.
Not quite as solid as a MC but close and I liked the features (TAPS is
a big
plus) and price.


I'm interested in why the TAPS is a big plus for you?


Wouldn't you agree this subject has also been beat to death.

One side says a properly designed boat doesn't need TAPS and that a hydrolic
trim plate is nothing novel since Supra has had it as an option for many
many years. Charlie Pigeon came up with a wonderful gimmick and sold the
heck out of it. It is also something a sales guy can demonstrate even if it
is questionable what he is really demonstrating.

The other side says that they love to adjust the boat's wake characteristics
and that they think it is a benefit.

Who cares? I have my opinions and voted with my wallet to get a CC.
Everyone has the freedom to do that, and you can't save the world from
making (what is in your mind) a poor decision.

"J.W. Frank" wrote in message
...

Jim , thanks for the comment. BTW, don't go near that dealer.... I
was just
informed that Malibu is discontinuing them and it is with good reason.
I'll
fill you in on all the other details another time.


Okay, so the rest of the story is finally coming out, that the dealer is
poor. I'm glad you found another dealer to do the repair. I was gonna
tell you to call New England Flighcraft, but they are a long way from
you. Hope you found one closer.

"J.W. Frank" wrote in message
...
No, it's not another issue, it is THE issue. I will have my boat
fixed
one way or another (another dealer for M has stepped up to the plate),
and I
will probably get rid of it. The issue is that I should never have
had this
problem in the first place. You yourself admit that:

Yes, I do agree with that. Selling the boat because of it is a knee
jerk reaction, IMHO. Unless you want to take a major money hit.

That's the point, and it should continue to be beaten until M changes
their
behavior or stops making defective boats.

I'm not going to try and defend M, but they do not make defective boats.
From year to year its a toss up who is the largest, M or MC. So 3500
boat sales a year means they are doing something right. However, in your
other post, you talk about GM having a problem, and having a recall.
True, BUT GM doesn't take the car back, and they don't sent a factory
tech out, and they don't take customer calls. Their DEALERS fix the
problem and off you go. That is just what Malibu is doing. The DEALER
is supposed to fix the problem. Again, as you stated, your dealer is no
longer going to be a M dealer. There is a good reason for this, as he
has not fixed your boat as he should have.


I wish I had seen the info on
this before buying... I would not have chosen "M". I sincerely hope I
can
help one other consumer, then my efforts will have been worthwhile.
Maybe I
missed the information or maybe is was between flare-ups when I
bought.
Either way, let's let everone who will listen know about it. Maybe
"M"
would put a little note about it in their brochure since "everyone
will
understand".


There is no reason in the world to not buy a Malibu boat. All of the
big 3, CC, MC, and M make good boats. You will never go wrong buying
any of them. Each of us that has bought their products had his or her
own reasons for buying that product.

BTY, you have never stated what happened when youtook your boat to the
dealer. What did or didn't he do? From your vague statements, this
sure sounds a lot like a dealer screw up of a repair, but you haven't
told us anything about that in between your rants about Malibu.

"Doug Meredith" wrote in message
...

"Mark Kovalcson" wrote in message
...
I'm interested in why the TAPS is a big plus for you?


Wouldn't you agree this subject has also been beat to death.
Who cares? I have my opinions and voted with my wallet to get a CC.
Everyone has the freedom to do that, and you can't save the world from
making (what is in your mind) a poor decision.


WhenI had my Nautique, I voted with my wallet too. But in this post, I
didn't say that he made a poor decision, I just asked why he made it.


If you read my post closely you would have seen that I didn't say that
either. I mentioned that different people can try to save the world from
(what is in their mind) a poor decision. In other words many of us think we
have it all figured out know a good decision from a poor one. Thinking we
know the difference between a good decision and a bad one and then trying to
save the world from making a horrible mistake is a trap we get caught in.
Giving good advice is one thing. Arguing incessantly is another.

dealer/manufacturer issue.
At least one manufacturer seems to do it "top down".
I received a fedex overnight package describing the problem and explaining
that parts were in short supply due to... list of items; need to replace
parts on boats still in production, new boats in distributor and dealer
stock, etc.
The next day I received a mail from my dealer to say that the parts for
my boat would be in "shortly", please be patient, etc.
Two days after that another message from the dealer saying my parts were
in and they would be happy (note that, "happy") to schedule the repair
at my earliest convenience, more apologies, etc.
The next day another message from the manufacturer, apologies for the delay,
etc.
About a week after the repair a follow-up from the manufacturer asking if the
repair
was to my satisfaction.

The manufacturer has the option to drive repairs and retrofits for design
and manufacturing problems - or to let customers drive it "bottom up".
In the short term it might be cheaper to only repair what has to be repaired
and to only do it for the customers that insist on having the repair.
Denial may be a useful tool for saving the warranty budget, in the short term.
Support costs can be viewed as an investment in repeat business and the goal
of staying in business for the long term. BTW, Chryco halved their warranty
expense last year - supposedly due to improved product quality.

From what little I know about this I regard it as a design problem,
but I think that way (-: i.e. if it can't be produced simply and consistently
then it wasn't designed for manufacturability (horrid word, but production
engineers use it a lot).

\R



"J.W. Frank" wrote:

1 - The Dealer's name is "Sun and Snow" in Utica NY. There seems to be a
whole seperate dealer/manufacturer issue here that needs to be addressed by
someone other than myself (i.e. Malibu).

2 - Thanks for the confirmation that someone other than myself might have
had this problem. It seems like a rediculous design, especially for a
northern climate. It would seem that if any moisture remains in this area
during off season strorage, our cold winter temperatures might make it worse
(trust me, it was much worse this spring).

3 - Guy may be a real nice guy (pun intended) but that is not helping my
problem. I am completely disgusted with this problem and how it was handled
from the local level on up. Like I said, I was even willing to foot the
bill to give Malibu one more shot but they wouldn't even work with me.
Malibu should take customer satisfaction more seriously. Additionally,
maybe they should consider competing with someone like Bayliner and forget
about the competition ski boat area.

4 - Have they changed the design on this "common problem"? The idea is
sound but the implementation sucks. How about a closed system that is oil
filled or something? Then it wouldn't leak (or the environmental people
would be all over them worse than I am!).

5 - Truth of the matter... I want my Mastercraft back. It was a quality
product from a quality company.

--

Doug Meredith wrote:

"J.W. Frank" wrote in message
...
Just a quick question: if you recently handed over close to 30k for a
new Malibu Response LX and it keeps taking on excessive water, what
would you do?
They seem to think it is a minor problem (the hydrobox is leaking and
needs fiberglass repair). I think it is a major problem... a
"manufacturing defect", if you will.
Mastercraft and Correct Craft never treated me this way. "Guy" (the
customer service manager) at Malibu told me to go ahead and write
this... that people would understand Malibu's position. I hope he is
right......

This was a common problem with Malibu's. The hydo damping box leaked.
If your boat is new, I'm surprised that you are having this problem.
Its an easy fix if the dealer has a clue. They have to find what part
of the box is leakings, grind out the old Plexus, and replace with new.
I've never seen one that leaked so bad that the bilgh pump even came
on. Guy Coward is a good guy, and should take care of your problem for
you. This is a dealer issue to get fixed. I'd be screaming at the
dealer, or talking to Malibu to have the dealer get it fixed NOW. What
dealer did you buy it from?

I started this thread and I intend to finish it. Here are my findings and
comments:

Findings:
Others have experienced the same problem.
This problem goes back through multiple model years.
The offending item (the hydobox) is still present in new models.

Comments:
It is MY belief that the inclusion of the "Hydrobox" introduced a potential
weakness into an otherwise soundly designed boat.
My Malibu is a beatiful boat. The performance and skiability are
fantastic. It contains a hydrobox.
The Malibu company line is that this is a dealer issue, they have NEVER
commented on the design of the hydrobox that I know of.
Many dedicated Malibu dealers seem willing to follow this company line and
even expouse the necessity of it.
Some dedicated Malibu "folks" do not like the free exchange of information
on such subjects.
Many Malibu customers have asked Malibu to look into a design change in this
area (see malibuboatowners.com, the top six things Malibu needs to change).

Final conclusion:
I DEMAND quality in the goods I purchase. This includes everything from the
design of the item, to the manufactuing, to the actually delivery of the
item, to the follow-up care. For that reason, I have always carefully
chosen the items I buy. I alone screwed up on this one. It appears I did
not do my homework well enough and fell victim to the "pretty girl at the
end of the bar". She was fun, but not someone I should have brought home.
In my opinion (don't flame it, it's my opinion and I am entitled to it just
as Malibu is entitled to theirs) this is a serious design flaw that has been
allowed to continue for way too long. I even asked 3 engineers whom I have
worked with to look at it and they too feel the same the way. As such, I
will work to have my boat repaired in the Malibu accepted manner by a
dedicated and caring dealer and I will do my best to find the boat a loving
home. I will then do extensive homework and purchase another brand until I
hear that Malibu has addressed the issue openly and truthfully or until I
retire from watersports Malibu-less. This is not the watersports lesson I
had hoped to share with my daughter but it is still an important, yet
costly, life experience.

Thanks to all that have listened and added your comments. Best of luck and
may you enjoy the warm weather and the calm water. Also, it was never my
intent to rant, rave, demean, argue, infuriate, or otherwise. My sole
purpose was the open exchange of information. Have a nice
day/week/month/year/life!

From what little I know about this I regard it as a design problem,
but I think that way (-: i.e. if it can't be produced simply and
consistently
then it wasn't designed for manufacturability (horrid word, but production
engineers use it a lot).

Blind gluing without the ability to inspect guarantees problems like this.

In my mind this is a poor design and the fact Malibu has decided to adopt a
procedure that is known to have problems and hasn't been able to correct it
in over 7 years of production is a bad choice. But they are building to a
lower price point and many people prefer to enjoy the savings inherent in
the processes that Malibu uses. Most boats won't have this problem.

"Mark Kovalcson" wrote in message
...
From what little I know about this I regard it as a design problem,
but I think that way (-: i.e. if it can't be produced simply and
consistently
then it wasn't designed for manufacturability (horrid word, but
production
engineers use it a lot).

Blind gluing without the ability to inspect guarantees problems like
this.

In my mind this is a poor design and the fact Malibu has decided to
adopt a
procedure that is known to have problems and hasn't been able to
correct it
in over 7 years of production is a bad choice. But they are building
to a
lower price point and many people prefer to enjoy the savings inherent
in
the processes that Malibu uses. Most boats won't have this problem.


Malibu only has this problem because they insist on using this stupid
hydro box. they have no other problems with construction. The hydro
box IMHO is a dumb thing, and as M has to know its a problem, I have no
idea why they haven't changed it. It seems that once the dealer fixes
it, it stays fixed, so I'd think the factory could do at least as good
a job. Using this hydo box has nothing to do with what price point they
are building to.

Malibu only has this problem because they insist on using this stupid
hydro box. they have no other problems with construction. The hydro
box IMHO is a dumb thing, and as M has to know its a problem, I have no
idea why they haven't changed it. It seems that once the dealer fixes
it, it stays fixed, so I'd think the factory could do at least as good
a job. Using this hydo box has nothing to do with what price point they
are building to.

I disagree. CC never would have put something like this into production
because they can't QC it according to their policy of being able to inspect
each part of the boat's construction. This is part of the R&D that they do.
MC wouldn't have let something like this continue either. Malibu being
stupid about this is part of their price point. They are using water
instead of a synthetic sound absorbing material, just like they use a
fiberglass only engine and pylon mount without metal reinforcement. Is it
fine most of the time sure is! Do they sometimes have to shim the pylon
because the fiberglass wallers out sure do! Once again, it is good enough
and most people benefit from the cost savings. I could and have gone on and
on and on ad infinitum, but it's past midnight and I just got back from the
lake and I'm wiped out. I also have no more to add about this.

"
I disagree. CC never would have put something like this into production
because they can't QC it according to their policy of being able to inspect
each part of the boat's construction. This is part of the R&D that they do.
MC wouldn't have let something like this continue either. Malibu being
stupid about this is part of their price point. They are using water
instead of a synthetic sound absorbing material, just like they use a
fiberglass only engine and pylon mount without metal reinforcement. Is it
fine most of the time sure is! Do they sometimes have to shim the pylon
because the fiberglass wallers out sure do! Once again, it is good enough
and most people benefit from the cost savings. I could and have gone on and
on and on ad infinitum, but it's past midnight and I just got back from the
lake and I'm wiped out. I also have no more to add about this.

Mark,

Your blind, anal,CC loyalty disgusts me. Your opinions can't be taken
seriously because you can't be truly subjective, your dislike of M and
your loyalty to CC will not allow you to be hoenstly subjective.
As for yor "price point" line of horse **** goes... save it. CC can
demand their over-inflated prices because of fools like you, but in
reality their boats are grossly over priced.

Glen Reeder