On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:40:49 -0500, DK wrote:

Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Jim wrote:
Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

The military hardware that would impress me is "intel." It
doesn't matter what hardware toys you have so long as your
intel sucks. Ours sucks.


Everything to do with America sucks to you. You've made that
very clear.

Eisboch
Absolutely, completely wrong. The country is great...but our
current top political leadership in the White House sucks.
Oh. Sorry. I thought you just said our intel sucks.
Oh, wait. You *did*.

Eisboch

Our intel does suck. It sucks because for the last eight years we
have been depending upon do-dads and torture instead of highly
trained, multi-lingual assets.
How about a big round of suck for Congress as long as you are in a
sucky mood.

Fear not...in January, the plans begin to wind down our era of
stupidity in Iraq.


I will make this prediction:

Obama will withdraw us from Iraq on the same time line and schedule
that the Bush administration has already established.

Like under Bush, it will be based on the recommendations of military
commanders on the ground and foreign policy experts. There may be a
big deal made of bringing home a few thousand troops at a time to give
the appearance of honoring his campaign commitment, but for all
intents and purposes it will still be the existing withdrawal plan.

If Obama tries to play General, overrules his advisors, pulls out too
quickly and any stability that has been accomplished in Iraq
dissolves, he will have his first major foreign policy blunder.

Eisboch





Whatever passes for stability in Iraq will end immediately upon our
departure, whenever that is.

Now there's a generic statement. Thanks for sharing your amazing insight!

The liberals actually pray for that. If Iraq remains peaceful, they lose
much face.
--
John H.

On Nov 19, 8:46*pm, JohnH wrote:
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:40:49 -0500, DK wrote:
Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Jim wrote:
Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
. ..

The military hardware that would impress me is "intel." It
doesn't matter what hardware toys you have so long as your
intel sucks. Ours sucks.

Everything to do with America sucks to you. * You've made that
very clear.

Eisboch
Absolutely, completely wrong. The country is great...but our
current top political leadership in the White House sucks.
Oh. *Sorry. *I thought you just said our intel sucks.
Oh, wait. *You *did*.

Eisboch

Our intel does suck. It sucks because for the last eight years we
have been depending upon do-dads and torture instead of highly
trained, multi-lingual assets.
How about a big round of suck for Congress as long as you are in a
sucky mood.

Fear not...in January, the plans begin to wind down our era of
stupidity in Iraq.

I will make this prediction:

Obama will withdraw us from Iraq on the same time line and schedule
that the Bush administration has already established.

Like under Bush, it will be based on the recommendations of military
commanders on the ground and *foreign policy experts. *There may be a
big deal made of bringing home a few thousand troops at a time to give
the appearance of honoring his campaign commitment, but for all
intents and purposes it will still be the existing withdrawal plan.

If Obama tries to play General, overrules his advisors, pulls out too
quickly and any stability that has been accomplished in Iraq
dissolves, he will have his first major foreign policy blunder.

Eisboch

Whatever passes for stability in Iraq will end immediately upon our
departure, whenever that is.

Now there's a generic statement. *Thanks for sharing your amazing insight!

The liberals actually pray for that. If Iraq remains peaceful, they lose
much face.
--
John H.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's the curse of those who live life with no moral core.. Another
product of that is not being able to remember what lies you have
already told. The lemmings don't really care though, hate guns here,
love em' there, hate God here, love him there, you know how it goes..
Change, change, change...

wrote:
On Nov 19, 8:46 pm, JohnH wrote:
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:40:49 -0500, DK wrote:
Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Jim wrote:
Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
The military hardware that would impress me is "intel." It
doesn't matter what hardware toys you have so long as your
intel sucks. Ours sucks.
Everything to do with America sucks to you. You've made that
very clear.
Eisboch
Absolutely, completely wrong. The country is great...but our
current top political leadership in the White House sucks.
Oh. Sorry. I thought you just said our intel sucks.
Oh, wait. You *did*.
Eisboch
Our intel does suck. It sucks because for the last eight years we
have been depending upon do-dads and torture instead of highly
trained, multi-lingual assets.
How about a big round of suck for Congress as long as you are in a
sucky mood.
Fear not...in January, the plans begin to wind down our era of
stupidity in Iraq.
I will make this prediction:
Obama will withdraw us from Iraq on the same time line and schedule
that the Bush administration has already established.
Like under Bush, it will be based on the recommendations of military
commanders on the ground and foreign policy experts. There may be a
big deal made of bringing home a few thousand troops at a time to give
the appearance of honoring his campaign commitment, but for all
intents and purposes it will still be the existing withdrawal plan.
If Obama tries to play General, overrules his advisors, pulls out too
quickly and any stability that has been accomplished in Iraq
dissolves, he will have his first major foreign policy blunder.
Eisboch
Whatever passes for stability in Iraq will end immediately upon our
departure, whenever that is.
Now there's a generic statement. Thanks for sharing your amazing insight!
The liberals actually pray for that. If Iraq remains peaceful, they lose
much face.
--
John H.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's the curse of those who live life with no moral core.



Self-analysis, eh?

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:15:37 GMT, Steve wrote:




They're looking for easy targets. If you're a bunch of pirates in a
little speedboat coming up to a tanker the size of an aircraft carrier
and while you're thinking of having to climb up a hundred foot rope
ladder there are guys on deck a hundred feet above you manning a few
mounted armored .50's and raining rounds into your boat while you're
still a mile out, you're gonna turn around real quick.

They weren't carrying anything to counter that. RPGs don't have
enough range. The rocket dies after only around 500m and they are
designed to self explode after less than 1000m of flight. An M2 .50
cal machine gun has an effective range (good enough to disable or sink
the speedboat) of twice that and a max range (good enough to let the
pirates know they are under fire) of over 4 miles.

And a huge freighter/tanker makes a great stable gun platform. A fast
moving speedboat does not.

You might be right about the .50's.
Still, that's a lot of gunners and watchkeepers.
I suspect the ship operators will get the military to handle it.
Saw a clip of some captured pirates today on the news.
It's a mistake "capturing" these guys.
Take no prisoners.

--Vic

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:40:49 -0500, DK wrote:

Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Jim wrote:
Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

The military hardware that would impress me is "intel." It
doesn't matter what hardware toys you have so long as your
intel sucks. Ours sucks.


Everything to do with America sucks to you. You've made that
very clear.

Eisboch
Absolutely, completely wrong. The country is great...but our
current top political leadership in the White House sucks.
Oh. Sorry. I thought you just said our intel sucks.
Oh, wait. You *did*.

Eisboch

Our intel does suck. It sucks because for the last eight years we
have been depending upon do-dads and torture instead of highly
trained, multi-lingual assets.
How about a big round of suck for Congress as long as you are in a
sucky mood.

Fear not...in January, the plans begin to wind down our era of
stupidity in Iraq.


I will make this prediction:

Obama will withdraw us from Iraq on the same time line and schedule
that the Bush administration has already established.

Like under Bush, it will be based on the recommendations of military
commanders on the ground and foreign policy experts. There may be a
big deal made of bringing home a few thousand troops at a time to give
the appearance of honoring his campaign commitment, but for all
intents and purposes it will still be the existing withdrawal plan.

If Obama tries to play General, overrules his advisors, pulls out too
quickly and any stability that has been accomplished in Iraq
dissolves, he will have his first major foreign policy blunder.

Eisboch





Whatever passes for stability in Iraq will end immediately upon our
departure, whenever that is.

Now there's a generic statement. Thanks for sharing your amazing insight!

The liberals actually pray for that. If Iraq remains peaceful, they lose
much face.
--
John H.

Even the Iraqi's say there will be 3 months of upheavel after we leave. If
we leave now, there will be 3 months of trouble, if we leave in 10 years
there will be 3 months of trouble. They will have to sort it out
themselves. As the State Department and the politicians were running the
show, we might as well pull back. I say pull back to the borders and
prevent any reinforcements or weapons being brought in, and let them
Get-r-done!

On Nov 19, 11:17*am, Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

The military hardware that would impress me is "intel." It doesn't matter
what hardware toys you have so long as your intel sucks. Ours sucks.

Everything to do with America sucks to you. * You've made that very clear.

Eisboch

Absolutely, completely wrong. The country is great...but our current top
political leadership in the White House sucks.

Yo' ain't seen nuttin' yet!

On Nov 19, 3:41*pm, Boater wrote:
Jim wrote:
Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

The military hardware that would impress me is "intel." It doesn't
matter what hardware toys you have so long as your intel sucks.
Ours sucks.

Everything to do with America sucks to you. * You've made that very
clear.

Eisboch

Absolutely, completely wrong. The country is great...but our current
top political leadership in the White House sucks.

Oh. *Sorry. *I thought you just said our intel sucks.
Oh, wait. *You *did*.

Eisboch

Our intel does suck. It sucks because for the last eight years we have
been depending upon do-dads and torture instead of highly trained,
multi-lingual assets.

How about a big round of suck for Congress as long as you are in a sucky
mood.

Fear not...in January, the plans begin to wind down our era of stupidity
in Iraq.

The the stupidity will shift from stupidity in Iraq, to sheer lunacy
on Pennsylvania Avenue.

On Nov 19, 4:32*pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message

...



Jim wrote:
Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

The military hardware that would impress me is "intel." It doesn't
matter what hardware toys you have so long as your intel sucks. Ours
sucks.

Everything to do with America sucks to you. * You've made that very
clear.

Eisboch

Absolutely, completely wrong. The country is great...but our current
top political leadership in the White House sucks.

Oh. *Sorry. *I thought you just said our intel sucks.
Oh, wait. *You *did*.

Eisboch

Our intel does suck. It sucks because for the last eight years we have
been depending upon do-dads and torture instead of highly trained,
multi-lingual assets.

How about a big round of suck for Congress as long as you are in a sucky
mood.

Fear not...in January, the plans begin to wind down our era of stupidity
in Iraq.

I will make this prediction:

Obama will withdraw us from Iraq on the same time line and schedule that the
Bush administration has already established.

Like under Bush, it will be based on the recommendations of military
commanders on the ground and *foreign policy experts. *There may be a big
deal made of bringing home a few thousand troops at a time to give the
appearance of honoring his campaign commitment, but for all intents and
purposes it will still be the existing withdrawal plan.

If Obama tries to play General, overrules his advisors, pulls out too
quickly and any stability that has been accomplished in Iraq dissolves, he
will have his first major foreign policy blunder.

Eisboch

And a devastating blunder it shall be.

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:15:37 +0000, Steve wrote:


They're looking for easy targets. If you're a bunch of pirates in a
little speedboat coming up to a tanker the size of an aircraft carrier
and while you're thinking of having to climb up a hundred foot rope
ladder there are guys on deck a hundred feet above you manning a few
mounted armored .50's and raining rounds into your boat while you're
still a mile out, you're gonna turn around real quick.

No one said they were smart pirates. Apparently, they, the pirates, were
the first to open fire on the Tabar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Tabar_(F44)

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:35:10 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:15:37 GMT, Steve wrote:




They're looking for easy targets. If you're a bunch of pirates in a
little speedboat coming up to a tanker the size of an aircraft carrier
and while you're thinking of having to climb up a hundred foot rope
ladder there are guys on deck a hundred feet above you manning a few
mounted armored .50's and raining rounds into your boat while you're
still a mile out, you're gonna turn around real quick.

They weren't carrying anything to counter that. RPGs don't have
enough range. The rocket dies after only around 500m and they are
designed to self explode after less than 1000m of flight. An M2 .50
cal machine gun has an effective range (good enough to disable or sink
the speedboat) of twice that and a max range (good enough to let the
pirates know they are under fire) of over 4 miles.

And a huge freighter/tanker makes a great stable gun platform. A fast
moving speedboat does not.

You might be right about the .50's.
Still, that's a lot of gunners and watchkeepers.
I suspect the ship operators will get the military to handle it.

The only way the military can do it is to escort the ships. What
they'll have to end up doing to make it an efficient use of resources
is just like in WWII, set up a convoy of a bunch of freighters/tankers
and have a military ship run with them through that area of ocean.

Another way is to attack the pirates on shore, which involves us or
someone going into Somalia (again) and doing that.

I see one shipping company has told their captians to avoid the area,
adding thousands of miles and many days to the trip:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk...6908-20906776/

You know how much it costs to take a supertanker an extra few thousand
miles? Much much cheaper to weld on some gun mounts and guns and hire
an extra 4 or 5 security people for watches and to man them.

Steve