I have a 1998 Sugar Sand Mirage with a 175 hp Mercury SportJet engine in it
(basically an outboard power head mounted to a jet)... I've been having a
problem with it that seems to make me think that oil is being injected into
the cylinders after the engine has been shut down... When I try to start the
engine, it won't fire unless I spray a lot of starting fluid (ether) into
the air intake... Doing this will eventually result in the engine starting,
but it takes a couple of tries... Once it does start, it smokes a lot
initially, but after awhile, it runs normally... I have verified that I have
good fuel (drained the tank and examined it in clear bottles)... I have
pulled the plugs before using the starting fluid and they have quite a bit
more 2-cycle oil on them than I would expect was normal... They come out of
the engine looking like they had been dipped in 2-cycle oil... This would
explain the smoking after it finally starts using the starting fluid...
After it has run for awhile, I can restart it immediately after a shutdown
and there is not a problem... If I wait an hour, I had better have a can of
starting fluid with me... To say the least, this does not give me much
confidence in my engine and thus I'm extremely hesitant to shutdown the
engine until I get back on my trailer at the end of the day...

Has anyone encountered this sort of problem before?

Mercury says in the engine manual not to pre-mix the oil and gas, but rather
to use the oil injection tank... Since it has an inboard tank and a fuel mix
is likely to stay in there for a period of time and I've always heard that
you should not use a 'stale' fuel mix for 2-cycle engines, I'm somewhat
hesitant to go the pre-mix route...

Suggestions?

Grumman-581 wrote:

I have a 1998 Sugar Sand Mirage with a 175 hp Mercury SportJet engine in it
(basically an outboard power head mounted to a jet)... I've been having a
problem with it that seems to make me think that oil is being injected into
the cylinders after the engine has been shut down... When I try to start the
engine, it won't fire unless I spray a lot of starting fluid (ether) into
the air intake... Doing this will eventually result in the engine starting,
but it takes a couple of tries... Once it does start, it smokes a lot
initially, but after awhile, it runs normally... I have verified that I have
good fuel (drained the tank and examined it in clear bottles)... I have
pulled the plugs before using the starting fluid and they have quite a bit
more 2-cycle oil on them than I would expect was normal... They come out of
the engine looking like they had been dipped in 2-cycle oil... This would
explain the smoking after it finally starts using the starting fluid...
After it has run for awhile, I can restart it immediately after a shutdown
and there is not a problem... If I wait an hour, I had better have a can of
starting fluid with me... To say the least, this does not give me much
confidence in my engine and thus I'm extremely hesitant to shutdown the
engine until I get back on my trailer at the end of the day...

The Merc oil system is intended to fail "safe" (unlike the OMC system) so
as you can see the engine tank gravity feeds the oil pump & a crank rotated
disc controls metering with revs. Most (not all) failure modes mean gravity
will continue to give the engine oil so long as there is oil in the tank.

Your choices would seem to be;

(i) Take it to a dealer & have it "fixed" no matter the cost, but beware it
"might" be expensive, equally it might be a simple hose valve etc. Best ask for
a firm quote before allowing them to proceed.

(ii) Disconnect the oil system & just put tcw3 in the fuel tank. I accept
you're reluctant to do this however your concerns about "stale" fuel while
correct about the fuel, don't really impact on the oil. The oil held in the
current injection tanks also absorb moisture over the winter etc & this
moisture is the cause of many oil injection system failures, whereas if the oil
is in the fuel tank it's always properly mixed (every time the boat moves on
water or trailer) & will totally eliminate any concerns about oil starvation.

Some in this NG run very oil rich mixes & swear by them for long engine
life, equally 50 to 1 is plenty for normal use over the season & doesn't risk
carbon buildup behind the rings, a little more if the boat is not used for
months on end & if not used all winter then spray fogging oil in the air
intakes until it stops because of it.

K



Has anyone encountered this sort of problem before?

Mercury says in the engine manual not to pre-mix the oil and gas, but rather
to use the oil injection tank... Since it has an inboard tank and a fuel mix
is likely to stay in there for a period of time and I've always heard that
you should not use a 'stale' fuel mix for 2-cycle engines, I'm somewhat
hesitant to go the pre-mix route...

Suggestions?

Grumman-581 wrote:

Well, I've got some new information on my testing of my engine... Perhaps
this will make sense to someone...

I brought the boat home the other day so that I could do some testing on
it... As expected, it was rather difficult to start... The battery being
somewhat low didn't help matters much, but with a little starting fluid
sprayed into it beforehand, it fired... After a couple of times of this, it
ran long enough for me to get to the engine compartment so that I could give
it a burst of starting fluid every few seconds to keep it running... After a
minute of this, it was able to run on it's own with me just advancing the
throttle a little bit.. I looked at the engine installation, but I could not
find any sort of check valves in there... I don't doubt that they are there,
but the engine compartment is somewhat crammed and I probably don't really
know what I'm looking for...

I checked the cover on the oil reservoir over the engine and it was tight...
I checked the caps on the external oil reservoir and they were tight also...
I noticed a placard that said that if the caps were loose, it could result
in insufficient oil going to the engine... This got me to thinking, so I
loosened the cap on the reservoir and noticed air pressure was being kept in
there so I suspect that one of the hoses that runs to it is to pressurize
the reservoir to use that to pump the oil into the main reservoir over the
engine... After I shut down the engine, I noticed that there was still
pressure in the reservoir... Is this normal?

Yes they harvest crankcase pulse pressure into the tank to be the "pump" to
get it to flow, first up to the engine tank & then as you found into the engine
metering/pump system.

If this reservoir is under
pressure even when the engine is off, could it perhaps cause it to flood the
engine with oil?

Not normally because when the engine stops turning so too does the metering
system & the pressure soon seeps away, which means the oil "shouldn't" keep
going, but age & wear???

I tried to start up the engine soon after having shut it
down and it did not have a problem... I then again released the pressure in
the external oil reservoir... I came back to it today and attempted to start
it again without using starting fluid... Normally a wait of a day would
result in me having to use starting fluid to start it and there being a lot
of smoke being produced as the engine burnt off the excess oil that was in
the cylinders... That was definitely not the case this time... So, I have a
way around the problem, but I don't know exactly what the problem is really
caused by... Anyone have any ideas?

As originally said it's designed to try & fail safe,

(i) i.e. you run out of oil in the bottom tank?? no "immediate" danger
because you still have oil in the engine tank.

(ii) The engine tank is level alarmed (the cap??) so if it gets low on oil
as say the bottom tank is empty, but this is getting scary bananas close to a
serious problem because it can last a little while just on the engine tank (1/2
hr max) however once the last of that is gone........

(iii) The oil is pressure & gravity fed (as you've noticed) to the engine's
metering/pump system which is crankshaft driven & linked to the throttle
position. The metering/pump should turn whenever the engine does & give more or
less oil per turn depending on the throttle position. If this pump fails (the
drive uses plastic gears!!! & they break) some oil (In a clean system with nice
new filters etc etc maybe enough, in an old boat just out of winter??? maybe
not) still gets though just under the tank pressure & gravity, so it sorta
"fails half safe" :-)

(iv) As the metering/pump gets older it lets more & more oil through so you
see more smoke & if you tamper with the link adjustment to the throttles you
run the risk of under oiling at high speed (not to be done)

Like Yamaha the system is not too bad when newish & working as intended but
as moisture builds up each winter in the oil holding tank(s) & the bits &
pieces wear it gets less & less reliable till one day ??? Don't feel too bad;
the OMC system is such a bad design it should have been disconnected at the
factory, no gravity feeds nothing & an alarm that can only detect the obvious,
beit too late.

Again the safe thing is to do away with it & mix tcw3 in the tank @ 50 to
1. The dealers of course deny any of this but they have a vested interest & if
you choose to have the system properly serviced by one, you'll see exactly what
that is.

K

K. Smith wrote:

Again the safe thing is to do away with it & mix tcw3 in the tank @ 50 to
1. The dealers of course deny any of this but they have a vested interest & if
you choose to have the system properly serviced by one, you'll see exactly what
that is.

K



The only "safe" thing to do is to totally ignore your prejudiced opinions.


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email sent to will *never* get to me.

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:58:28 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

K. Smith wrote:

Again the safe thing is to do away with it & mix tcw3 in the tank @ 50 to
1. The dealers of course deny any of this but they have a vested interest & if
you choose to have the system properly serviced by one, you'll see exactly what
that is.

K



The only "safe" thing to do is to totally ignore your prejudiced opinions.

Where was 'prejudice' introduced in Karen's response?
John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

JohnH wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:58:28 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

K. Smith wrote:

Again the safe thing is to do away with it & mix tcw3 in the tank @ 50 to
1. The dealers of course deny any of this but they have a vested interest & if
you choose to have the system properly serviced by one, you'll see exactly what
that is.

K



The only "safe" thing to do is to totally ignore your prejudiced opinions.

Where was 'prejudice' introduced in Karen's response?
John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD


Her never-ending anti-dealer prejudice, of course. It isn't obvious to you?


I've had engines "properly serviced" by dealers for years and haven't
had any problems with the dealerships. Smith doesn't even own an
outboard, probably has never seen a modern outboard in person, and
certainly doesn't repair them. She picks up tidbits in newsgroups,
stretches them to near breaking and then regurgitates them here. She's a
fraud.

--
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email sent to will *never* get to me.

Harry Krause wrote:

JohnH wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:58:28 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

K. Smith wrote:

Again the safe thing is to do away with it & mix tcw3 in the tank @ 50 to
1. The dealers of course deny any of this but they have a vested interest & if
you choose to have the system properly serviced by one, you'll see exactly what
that is.

K



The only "safe" thing to do is to totally ignore your prejudiced opinions.

Where was 'prejudice' introduced in Karen's response?
John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

Her never-ending anti-dealer prejudice, of course. It isn't obvious to you?

I've had engines "properly serviced" by dealers for years and haven't
had any problems with the dealerships. Smith doesn't even own an
outboard, probably has never seen a modern outboard in person, and
certainly doesn't repair them. She picks up tidbits in newsgroups,
stretches them to near breaking and then regurgitates them here. She's a
fraud.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

Dear dear dear the biggest liar on the internet calling me a fraud because I'm
conscientiously trying to help; I love it!!!

So I'm suggesting to you Harry that this is the first time you've ever seen in
this NG an explanation of how the full Merc system works, if I'm wrong go for it &
I'll read same with interest. Indeed I may learn more about it & equally it's clear
you have no clue about any of it.

As for a prejudice against dealers?? well OK that's common ground, but if you'd
ever really owned a boat you know what I mean when I warn about the auto oiling system
being a cash cow for the dealers to milk at will, from the pricing on the parts, the
amount of work (charged labour both time & rate) needed to keep it all tickety boo &
of course the biggy, the bonanza when people lose the engine because of lack of
sufficient oiling.

All goes away if tcw3 it mixed in the fuel tank, simple & costs almost nothing to
setup.


K

K. Smith wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

JohnH wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:58:28 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

K. Smith wrote:

Again the safe thing is to do away with it & mix tcw3 in the tank @ 50 to
1. The dealers of course deny any of this but they have a vested interest & if
you choose to have the system properly serviced by one, you'll see exactly what
that is.

K



The only "safe" thing to do is to totally ignore your prejudiced opinions.

Where was 'prejudice' introduced in Karen's response?
John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

Her never-ending anti-dealer prejudice, of course. It isn't obvious to you?

I've had engines "properly serviced" by dealers for years and haven't
had any problems with the dealerships. Smith doesn't even own an
outboard, probably has never seen a modern outboard in person, and
certainly doesn't repair them. She picks up tidbits in newsgroups,
stretches them to near breaking and then regurgitates them here. She's a
fraud.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

Dear dear dear the biggest liar on the internet calling me a fraud
because I'm
conscientiously trying to help; I love it!!!

All you conscientiously try to do is trash dealers, manufacturers and
the vast majority of humanity that disagrees with you.




So I'm suggesting to you Harry that this is the first time you've ever seen in
this NG an explanation of how the full Merc system works,

Wrong again, buffalo chip breath.



if I'm wrong go for it &
I'll read same with interest.

It's more fun, in a really disgusting way, to watch you play with yourself.



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email sent to will *never* get to me.