On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 06:43:42 +0000, D Murphy wrote:

Curly Surmudgeon wrote in
:

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 03:28:32 +0000, D Murphy wrote:

Curly Surmudgeon wrote in
news:499931b3$0$31617 :

Many have been murdered, beaten and robbed.

A new charge, any cites?

A new charge, any cites?

They are poorly compensated and Venezuelan doctors claim that they
are poorly trained.

Any cites to substantiate that claim?

Start by reading the speech Chavez gave where he condemmed the
murder of a Cuban doctor.

It's your claim, you provide the cite.

Here is one I turned up in a quick search -

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/...-diplomacy.htm

Ok, that's one in 72,000 or 0.001389%. All numbers taken from your
article.

Believe it or not I'm pretty good at math.

BTW, "one" being the cite, more cases were mentioned in the article
which is just one doctor's first hand account. And of course her
experience could be the worst of anyone elses, typical, or better.
There's no way of knowing.


I did read a report about Chavez mentioning a particular murder of a
Cuban doctor in a speech. It was newsworthy in that he rarely admits
to any sort of problems publicly.

Seriously, they aren't all serving in remote rural areas. Some are
posted in very dangerous urban neighborhoods, the likes of which don't
exist in Cuba, where violent crime is prevelent.

No doubt, there are, indeed, some very dangerous barrios in every large
town. Caracas has two really nasty ones that I was repeatedly advised
to stay clear of. Nor is it a surprise they exist.

150 years of foreign enslavement by the U.S. Government and
corporations have kept Venezuela in turmoil with repeated riots,
military takeover, dictators, and socialists. Read "Shock Doctrine"
which focuses on Chile. The policies were carried out in "Gran
Columbia" a century before.

Are you aware that Venezuela, like Panama, was part of Gran Columbia
before the US shattered the nation to obtain a legal pretext for
ownership to build the canal?

I doubt that has much to do with bad neighborhoods. They exist almost
everywhere.

The US also paid Columbia restitution and one could argue that the
construction effort eliminated a lot of disease in the area and improved
living conditions for many.

As far as Venezuela goes, they pulled out of Gran Columbia in 1830, long
before the building of the Panama Canal, which BTW, was originally
started by the French. But yeah, Roosevelt muscled his way in there and
sponsored revolution.

True, 1830, but the point was that the U.S. broke up Gran Columbia.
Actually the U.S. never left the region for long with repeated "lessons"
to keep the region in line.

To say the United States "enslaved" the Venezuelan government in mid
19th century has no basis in the reality of the situation there at that
time though.

Economically enslaved, the United Fruit Company, Dole, and other U.S.
corporations used the U.S. military to stomp any locals who might
threaten their looting.

Stop blaming the Latins for events caused, directly, by the United
States.

I never blamed anyone for anything. You are reading way too much into
this. But as long as we are looking for villians in Latin American
history, maybe we should start with Cortez? In the end we can no more
change that history as the rest, so maybe it's best to look forward.

I'd begin with the Catholic Church, to which all the Conquistadors paid
homage and representatives did, literally, enslave the indigenous.

It's always easy to look at the past with 20/20 hindsight and see the
mistakes. It's also easy to live in the past and blame it for every
percieved wrong in ones life. Blame is the life blood of populist
socialist governments. It deflects the critisism away from any of their
failings and points it toward some big imagined evil empire.

I believe you began the blame game criticizing Chavez.

To understand the reality of Latin America one must comprehend the
history of the region. When you grasp where Chavez is coming from its a
lot easier to understand why he is vociferously protective of his people.

I find that a refreshing change from the dictators and puppets who
preceeded Hugo Chavez and a good omen for his successor. Just as Raul
Castro is improving Cuba after Fidel.

--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arrest Bush
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Curly Surmudgeon wrote in news:499bbdbe$0
:

It's always easy to look at the past with 20/20 hindsight and see the
mistakes. It's also easy to live in the past and blame it for every
percieved wrong in ones life. Blame is the life blood of populist
socialist governments. It deflects the critisism away from any of
their
failings and points it toward some big imagined evil empire.

I believe you began the blame game criticizing Chavez.

He deserves some. The problem with his populist style of socialism is
that eventually you run out of places to take money from. State run
businesses usually go into decline fairly quickly. The wealthy hurry
their money out of the country, and after what little wealth that is left
is redistributed, there's not enough to go around.

He has benefitted from ever rising oil prices. But that train has run off
the tracks. Venezuela once had more diversity in its economy. Nowadays a
little over 90% of GDP is related to oil.

Inflation is running at 30% right now and there are food shortages. It's
not good.


To understand the reality of Latin America one must comprehend the
history of the region. When you grasp where Chavez is coming from its
a
lot easier to understand why he is vociferously protective of his
people.

I find that a refreshing change from the dictators and puppets who
preceeded Hugo Chavez and a good omen for his successor. Just as Raul
Castro is improving Cuba after Fidel.

I hope you are right. But it looks to me like he is moving to make
himself dictator for life with the removal of term limits. Time will
tell. Right now he is facing a serious crisis and he's worn out his
welcome with people who would help him, with his constant empty,
inflammatory rhetoric. Humility has a place in leadership. Hopefully
he'll find some.

--

Dan

CNC Videos - http://tinyurl.com/yzdt6d

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 03:32:30 +0000, D Murphy wrote:

Curly Surmudgeon wrote in news:499bbdbe$0
:

It's always easy to look at the past with 20/20 hindsight and see the
mistakes. It's also easy to live in the past and blame it for every
percieved wrong in ones life. Blame is the life blood of populist
socialist governments. It deflects the critisism away from any of
their
failings and points it toward some big imagined evil empire.

I believe you began the blame game criticizing Chavez.

He deserves some. The problem with his populist style of socialism is
that eventually you run out of places to take money from. State run
businesses usually go into decline fairly quickly. The wealthy hurry
their money out of the country, and after what little wealth that is
left is redistributed, there's not enough to go around.

He has benefitted from ever rising oil prices. But that train has run
off the tracks. Venezuela once had more diversity in its economy.
Nowadays a little over 90% of GDP is related to oil.

Inflation is running at 30% right now and there are food shortages. It's
not good.

True but again you must look at where he began and the outside influences
he's fighting.

To understand the reality of Latin America one must comprehend the
history of the region. When you grasp where Chavez is coming from its
a
lot easier to understand why he is vociferously protective of his
people.

I find that a refreshing change from the dictators and puppets who
preceeded Hugo Chavez and a good omen for his successor. Just as Raul
Castro is improving Cuba after Fidel.

I hope you are right. But it looks to me like he is moving to make
himself dictator for life with the removal of term limits. Time will
tell. Right now he is facing a serious crisis and he's worn out his
welcome with people who would help him, with his constant empty,
inflammatory rhetoric. Humility has a place in leadership. Hopefully
he'll find some.

Hugo's time is passing. He did what he could and it's time for new
leadership. Let's just not ignore his accomplishments.

--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arrest Bush
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 18 Feb 2009 03:28:32 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

Seriously, they aren't all serving in remote rural areas. Some are posted
in very dangerous urban neighborhoods, the likes of which don't exist in
Cuba, where violent crime is prevelent. And I'll wager that these Cuban
docs are far from street wise.

Cuba sends doctors but the US would send bombs, eh?
And US teachers & doctors get their education costs
wiped off/forgiven in many cases for doing their jobs
... often in inner-city or rural areas.
--
Cliff