Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:00:01 -0400, HK wrote:


The ship, its contents, and ransom money are just property, a commodity
much less valuable than the lives of the ship crews.

Yep. That's what has to be kept in mind.
Very easy to get hotheaded about it.
I wanted Carter to give me a rifle and a parachute and drop me into
Tehran back then. With others of course.
Would have been a bloody mess.
The chopper mission might have proved a disaster if they had made
it to the embassy.
So far the pirates haven't killed anybody.
They don't want to mess up a good thing.
But there's some question about where the many millions of money
extorted are going. Terrorists or Wall Street probably.
But I repeat myself.

--Vic


There's not much difference between the terrorists and Wall Street.
They're all pirates.

--
Palin & Bachmann in 2012 -
All Stupidity All the Time

"HK" wrote in message
m...
Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
m...


The ship, its contents, and ransom money are just property, a commodity
much less valuable than the lives of the ship crews.



The reason this nonsense continues is because ransoms are paid.

I know what Ronald Reagan would do.
I know what George H.W. Bush would do.
I know what George W. Bush would do.
Hell, I can even guess what Bill Clinton would do.

But, I can't begin to predict what Obama would or will do.
After all, it's only money.

Thomas Jefferson had the right idea.

Eisboch


I think it really stupid to assault a ship commanded by pirates when the
crews' lives are at stake. On the other hand, if there are pirates
approaching or leaving the ship, and they are not carrying hostages, well,
they are fair game. We obviously need to task some satellites to watch the
Somali coast and any small boats heading way offshore. We can do that in
real time, and dispatch naval aircraft to ward off any small boats that
get too close. We can do this at night, too.

What would George W. Bush do? Get a few thousand Americans killed.




I didn't say that. We don't need to put the crew of a captured ship at
further risk.
But, we can take action against the warlords that organize these attacks.

Eisboch

Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:03:42 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Interestingly, the first military action taken by the United States after
we became an independent nation was against the Barbary pirates who were
doing exactly the same thing then as the Somali pirates are doing today.
They were capturing European ships and demanding ransom payments. They
then began attacking US ships. At first Congress appropriated money to be
paid as ransom but Thomas Jefferson had some balls and led the effort to
confront them. We didn't really have a global Navy at the time, but what
we had were sent to the Med and they took care of business.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/collecti.../mtjprece.html


The Barbary states were pushovers compared with Somalia.
No leaders in Somalia.
The only answer I see is to make pirating suicidal.
One tactic might be to carpet bomb any port where ships are held
captive - after the ships are ransomed of course.
But it will generate very bad publicity and all kinds of hand
wringing.

--Vic



I dunno, Vic. It seems when we use our brawn instead of our brains on
these failed states, we seem to make it easier for terrorists and despots.

--
Palin & Bachmann in 2012 -
All Stupidity All the Time

On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 13:12:18 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


I would put a noose around all the pirates that are captured on the ship and
line them up along the rail. Inform the ones with the captain that if
anything happens to the captain or they leave the area, the ones on the rail
will head to the sea.

I was watching Glenn Beck a while ago and for once he said something
that might have made sense.
"Where are the Marines?"
Keeping a fast reaction force in that area and just plain kicking ass
when an American flagged ship is touched would stop it cold.
Take no prisoners.
I got a feeling it won't be done because of crew safety and
"environmental" considerations.
Sticky problem. The Mayaguez and Iran hostage situations are probably
studied to make these kinds of decisions.
Remember the Q-ships? Merchant ships with hidden guns.
Maybe it was all a John Wayne movie.
Tripoli was assaulted to stop the pirates before.
Might take a land assault to stop it this time.
It's weird to think that 204 years after the Barbary pirates, we're
back to the same problem.
Actually, Somalia is less "civilized" than was Tripoli.
There was a leader of Tripoli to make peace with.

--Vic

Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 13:12:18 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

I would put a noose around all the pirates that are captured on the ship and
line them up along the rail. Inform the ones with the captain that if
anything happens to the captain or they leave the area, the ones on the rail
will head to the sea.

I was watching Glenn Beck a while ago and for once he said something
that might have made sense.
"Where are the Marines?"
Keeping a fast reaction force in that area and just plain kicking ass
when an American flagged ship is touched would stop it cold.

The Marines are not trained to handle this type of operation. The Navy
SEALs are better trained and equipped to respond to these situations.
Marine small units are platoons, 40 men, SEAL small units are 8 to 10
men. The logistics of the SEAL team make them much easier to deploy and
manage in the field.

Take no prisoners.

I agree, turn the pirates into shark food.

I got a feeling it won't be done because of crew safety and
"environmental" considerations.

The sharks would spit out the pirates?

Sticky problem. The Mayaguez and Iran hostage situations are probably
studied to make these kinds of decision

Remember the Q-ships? Merchant ships with hidden guns.
Maybe it was all a John Wayne movie.
Tripoli was assaulted to stop the pirates before.

That took resolve and a back bone to make a decision.

Might take a land assault to stop it this time.

Tripoli was a land assault.

It's weird to think that 204 years after the Barbary pirates, we're
back to the same problem.

Piracy and terrorism will never go away.

Actually, Somalia is less "civilized" than was Tripoli.

Somalia is giant leap back to the 7th century.

There was a leader of Tripoli to make peace with.

There was leader to threaten with death.

"HK" wrote

The ship, its contents, and ransom money are just property, a commodity
much less valuable than the lives of the ship crews.

True. And to continue to send unarmed men into these situations in these
areas is plain stupidity. We have US naval vessels all over the globe doing
such things as jellyfish research, listening, and retesting something they
tested 2,000 times before. It would be nothing to station vessels on patrol
in that area of the world, and to handle these situations as they come up.
If a SEAL can't handle a skinny terrorist with an antiquated RPG, he should
turn in his flippers.

They're going to keep doing this as long as we keep allowing it. Hussein
isn't going to do anything about it, so it is up to the company owners. A
few more paid ABSs wouldn't add that much cost. They'd be private employees
operating no soverign property.

"Pittman Pirate" wrote in message
...

"HK" wrote

The ship, its contents, and ransom money are just property, a commodity
much less valuable than the lives of the ship crews.

True. And to continue to send unarmed men into these situations in these
areas is plain stupidity. We have US naval vessels all over the globe
doing such things as jellyfish research, listening, and retesting
something they tested 2,000 times before. It would be nothing to station
vessels on patrol in that area of the world, and to handle these
situations as they come up. If a SEAL can't handle a skinny terrorist with
an antiquated RPG, he should turn in his flippers.


Haven't spent that much time in the blue water, huh?
Mighty small ships in gigantic oceans. We have ships patrolling
the normal shipping lanes, but this event happened about 300 miles
from the nearest Naval vessel according to the reports.
Furthermore, there were apparently about 150 cargo ships transiting
the general area at the time. Which do you protect?

Eisboch

"HK" wrote in message
...
Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:03:42 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Interestingly, the first military action taken by the United States
after we became an independent nation was against the Barbary pirates
who were doing exactly the same thing then as the Somali pirates are
doing today. They were capturing European ships and demanding ransom
payments. They then began attacking US ships. At first Congress
appropriated money to be paid as ransom but Thomas Jefferson had some
balls and led the effort to confront them. We didn't really have a
global Navy at the time, but what we had were sent to the Med and they
took care of business.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/collecti.../mtjprece.html


The Barbary states were pushovers compared with Somalia.
No leaders in Somalia.
The only answer I see is to make pirating suicidal.
One tactic might be to carpet bomb any port where ships are held
captive - after the ships are ransomed of course.
But it will generate very bad publicity and all kinds of hand
wringing.

--Vic



I dunno, Vic. It seems when we use our brawn instead of our brains on
these failed states, we seem to make it easier for terrorists and despots.


So what is the solution? Call a meeting and ask them politely to please
stop doing this?
Or, we do what was done back in the Barbary days and negotiate an annual
payment to the pirates to ensure safe passage of our ships? That's what
most of
Europe was doing in those days.

Eisboch

On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:00:01 -0400, HK wrote:



The ship, its contents, and ransom money are just property, a commodity
much less valuable than the lives of the ship crews.

Yep. That's what has to be kept in mind.
Very easy to get hotheaded about it.
I wanted Carter to give me a rifle and a parachute and drop me into
Tehran back then. With others of course.
Would have been a bloody mess.
The chopper mission might have proved a disaster if they had made
it to the embassy.
So far the pirates haven't killed anybody.
They don't want to mess up a good thing.
But there's some question about where the many millions of money
extorted are going. Terrorists or Wall Street probably.
But I repeat myself.

--Vic

On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:03:42 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:



Interestingly, the first military action taken by the United States after
we became an independent nation was against the Barbary pirates who were
doing exactly the same thing then as the Somali pirates are doing today.
They were capturing European ships and demanding ransom payments. They
then began attacking US ships. At first Congress appropriated money to be
paid as ransom but Thomas Jefferson had some balls and led the effort to
confront them. We didn't really have a global Navy at the time, but what
we had were sent to the Med and they took care of business.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/collecti.../mtjprece.html


The Barbary states were pushovers compared with Somalia.
No leaders in Somalia.
The only answer I see is to make pirating suicidal.
One tactic might be to carpet bomb any port where ships are held
captive - after the ships are ransomed of course.
But it will generate very bad publicity and all kinds of hand
wringing.

--Vic