On Thu, 7 May 2009 15:49:00 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

Oh, by the way - the 17 billion? It's not a "cost savings" at all as
it turns out. Just on CNBC - it's being "re-directed" to more Obama
friendly proposals. So it's not a "cost savings" but a redirection of
the funds to other projects.

Like I said - you go out to buy $100,000 Mercedes and come back with a
$20,000 Toyota - you "saved" $80,000.

Oh. I get it. Then you give the $80K to Toyota to keep them in business.

Exactly.

Very slippery people these Obamaminions. I never thought I'd live long
enough to see a President out slick Clinton, but this guy is a classic
slippery character.

It's all smoke and mirrors - OH LOOK OVER THERE and never mind what
I'm doing over here.

"HK" wrote in message
m...
Eisboch wrote:

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

Oh, by the way - the 17 billion? It's not a "cost savings" at all as
it turns out. Just on CNBC - it's being "re-directed" to more Obama
friendly proposals. So it's not a "cost savings" but a redirection of
the funds to other projects.

Like I said - you go out to buy $100,000 Mercedes and come back with a
$20,000 Toyota - you "saved" $80,000.


Oh. I get it. Then you give the $80K to Toyota to keep them in
business.

Eisboch


No offense, but I'm getting a kick out of reading the posts of wealthy
retirees whining about funding for programs that might help people without
jobs or about to lose their jobs.

No offense taken. I am entitled to my opinion as to what might help people
without jobs or about to lose them. Government handouts and "make work"
programs are not the answer. Temporary assistance in the form of
unemployment benefits, job training programs and investments/grants for
industry growth are good and will bear fruit.

Giving away $8 billion dollars of taxpayer's money to a dead automotive
company isn't.

Eisboch

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

Oh well. It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like
it's dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained due
to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. LORAN is much more difficult to jam. I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

Eisboch

Damn, there used to be spectacular quail hunting near the LORAN station
south of Searchlight, Nevada. If they take it out, I won't be able to go
quail hunting there any more.

Steve

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

Oh well. It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like
it's dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained
due to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. LORAN is much more difficult to jam. I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

Eisboch

Damn, there used to be spectacular quail hunting near the LORAN station
south of Searchlight, Nevada. If they take it out, I won't be able to go
quail hunting there any more.

Steve



Better go shoot quick before they turn it into condos.

Eisboch

On Thu, 07 May 2009 16:10:35 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

On Thu, 7 May 2009 15:49:00 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

Oh, by the way - the 17 billion? It's not a "cost savings" at all as
it turns out. Just on CNBC - it's being "re-directed" to more Obama
friendly proposals. So it's not a "cost savings" but a redirection of
the funds to other projects.

Like I said - you go out to buy $100,000 Mercedes and come back with a
$20,000 Toyota - you "saved" $80,000.

Oh. I get it. Then you give the $80K to Toyota to keep them in business.

Exactly.

Very slippery people these Obamaminions. I never thought I'd live long
enough to see a President out slick Clinton, but this guy is a classic
slippery character.

It's all smoke and mirrors - OH LOOK OVER THERE and never mind what
I'm doing over here.

And somehow that's more destructive than what we've lived through for
the past 8 years?

Hate to tell you but most people think the country is headed in the
right direction since Obama took over.

Maybe they're just not as smart as you that live on easy street.

On May 7, 10:05*am, jps wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:



Oh well. * It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like it's
dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained due
to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. *LORAN is much more difficult to jam. * I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

Eisboch

Again you find yourself in the minority. *What's a renaissance man to
do?

use a road map.

On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

It was a huge step forward at the time but had serious limitations if
you used it a lot.

Loran was/is highly susceptible to interference from alternators,
ignition systems and thunderstorms - frequently resulting in total
loss of signal at inopportune times. I ended up installing a switch
to disable the alternator on one of my old sailboats so that I could
get a reliable position fix when I really needed it.

There are other issues that appear when you are too close to one of
the transmitting stations like the one on Nantucket or Jupiter,
Florida, or the geometry of the crossing LOPs was less than optimal.

Going offshore we used to lose the signals completely about 400 miles
out, not quite far enough to navigate to Bermuda.

I got a GPS as soon as they became readily available in the early '90s
and have never looked back. In 1994 the boat I was on took a near hit
from a lightening strike about 300 miles offshore. It knocked out
all of the electronics on board. We continued on to Bermuda using
nothing but my pocket GPS which I had recently purchased just before
the trip.

"HK" wrote in message
...
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2009 15:25:30 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

On Thu, 7 May 2009 12:40:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:
I don't think they are thinking it though. Virtually every
commercial
fisherman in my area and a large percentage of charter boat captains
still
use and prefer LORAN to GPS.
Of course they haven't thought it through. The cost savings for a back
up navigation system is so minor in comparison to what "The One" is
proposing it's ridiculous.

17 billion dollars off a whopping 3.4 trillion dollar budget proposal.
Where did you come up with 17 billion?

Here's the "cost savings" to be had by shutting down LORAN:

"On 26 Feb 2009 the The U.S. Office of Management and Budget released
the first blueprint for the Financial Year 2010 budget.[7] This document
identifies the Loran-C system as "outdated" and supports its termination
at an estimated savings of $36 million in 2010 and $190 million over
five years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN

Chump change.

That's the total package that the $36 million is part of - sorry for
the confusion.

Oh, by the way - the 17 billion? It's not a "cost savings" at all as
it turns out. Just on CNBC - it's being "re-directed" to more Obama
friendly proposals. So it's not a "cost savings" but a redirection of
the funds to other projects.

Like I said - you go out to buy $100,000 Mercedes and come back with a
$20,000 Toyota - you "saved" $80,000.


Well, you went out to buy an outboard motor...and came back with an
etec...

That's the exact opposite of Tom's statement you idiot. Oh I forgot, you
have a yammie OB... I'll type slower next time.

--Mike

On Thu, 07 May 2009 23:22:53 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

It was a huge step forward at the time but had serious limitations if
you used it a lot.

Loran was/is highly susceptible to interference from alternators,
ignition systems and thunderstorms - frequently resulting in total
loss of signal at inopportune times. I ended up installing a switch
to disable the alternator on one of my old sailboats so that I could
get a reliable position fix when I really needed it.

There are other issues that appear when you are too close to one of
the transmitting stations like the one on Nantucket or Jupiter,
Florida, or the geometry of the crossing LOPs was less than optimal.

Going offshore we used to lose the signals completely about 400 miles
out, not quite far enough to navigate to Bermuda.

I got a GPS as soon as they became readily available in the early '90s
and have never looked back. In 1994 the boat I was on took a near hit
from a lightening strike about 300 miles offshore. It knocked out
all of the electronics on board. We continued on to Bermuda using
nothing but my pocket GPS which I had recently purchased just before
the trip.

Those are all good points, but (ain't there always) the GPS system is
designed to be shut down, except for aircraft and military receivers,
in cases of national emergency. And the Chinese and Russians can
certainly reach out and touch the satellites either blinding them or
destroying them in fairly short order. And EMP (either natural or by
man caused diasters) can wreck havoc on ground recievers.

For the cost it takes to keep the system running as a back up to GPS,
it certainly seems cost effective. Heck, a few hundred million to
upgrade and do some research on improving the system - what's it gonna
hurt besides taking some organizing money away from the UAW and ACORN.

The same argument applies to LORAN as it does to Morse - simple to
use, effective and it does the job - perhaps not perfectly, but it
does do the job. Why kill it for the sake of a very minor cost savings
when it's potential to actually be useful is large and very real?

And if I remember correctly, there was some discussion at one time
about a new LORAN translator algorithym that was a better positioning
system, but nothing ever came of it. I wonder what happened to that?

Maybe it's being a Luddite, but this reliance on heavy technology is
going to bite humanity in the ass some day - simpler is always better.

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

On Thu, 07 May 2009 23:22:53 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I always liked the reliability of LORAN.



It was a huge step forward at the time but had serious limitations if
you used it a lot.

Loran was/is highly susceptible to interference from alternators,
ignition systems and thunderstorms - frequently resulting in total
loss of signal at inopportune times. I ended up installing a switch
to disable the alternator on one of my old sailboats so that I could
get a reliable position fix when I really needed it.


And if I remember correctly, there was some discussion at one time
about a new LORAN translator algorithym that was a better positioning
system, but nothing ever came of it. I wonder what happened to that?


Wayne's points are good although frankly I have never experienced any
problems with interference of the signals. I also don't (didn't) use it
as much or as often as I am sure he has, so maybe it was just luck or the
fact that my area has strong signals. As I mentioned before, most of the
commercial fishing boats in this area still use LORAN, mainly out of habit
and familiarity.

LORAN-C and OMEGA were the primary electronic navigation aids for the US
Navy for many years before SATNAV (GPS) came upon the scene.

Tom, I think you are thinking of "e-LORAN". It was a proposed major
upgrade to the LORAN system, but never got off the ground to the best of my
knowledge.

Eisboch