I'm looking at a nice Blackfin with twin '97 Johson 225's.
I'm cautious when I think of the late 90's when OMC made faulty Ficht
outboards.
I'm thinking '97 '98,'99?
I know the injection system had problems then a fuel filter/reservoir issue.
Did all units need to be corrected by an OMC mechanic?
Is there a list of serial numbers for those corrected?
Are there certain years/models to be avoided?
Did Bombardier sell OMC if so what do we know about the buyer relative to
any warrant?


I

Jim and Becky wrote:
I'm looking at a nice Blackfin with twin '97 Johson 225's.
I'm cautious when I think of the late 90's when OMC made faulty Ficht
outboards.
I'm thinking '97 '98,'99?
I know the injection system had problems then a fuel filter/reservoir issue.
Did all units need to be corrected by an OMC mechanic?
Is there a list of serial numbers for those corrected?
Are there certain years/models to be avoided?
Did Bombardier sell OMC if so what do we know about the buyer relative to
any warrant?


I



It's a defective design & while Ficht, OMC, then Bomb of course never
actually admitted that, the history confirms it (OMC 7000 jobs chucked &
US 1.3 billion of pension money peed against the wall) Bomb tried to
deceptively drop the Ficht name but quickly realised that these days
with NGs like this these, the old dealer delivered scams won't work
anymore, so sold it.

The core issue is that they try to deliberately run the engine very
very lean at lower revs to get through the EPA regs, but it's been well
known, understood & documented since before WW2 that this is at best
very risky & in a goodly percentage of instances fatal to the engine.
Leading to piston heat buildup, then when full fuel is re supplied as
power is quickly increased, it leads to full destructive detonation. (
the head of OMC actually admitted a Ficht failure rate of 1 in 5 !!!)

So be very careful because 1 in 5 Fichts fail & even accepting that all
OMC & anyone connected to them were Ficht liars so it was probably more
than that:-). Even so at 1 in 5 it's a pretty sad lottery. Yes the boat
will be very cheap on account of it having a Ficht, but ........

Just in case you come across a similar boat with an Optimax on it be
also aware that they are better but not by much. Notwithstanding they go
about it a totally different mechanical way, the very same basic design
fault is there.

No manufacturer has managed to run engines lean at power & not suffer
horrendous failure rate through detonation, & plenty have tried in the
past, including Honda, Chrysler & NASA. (it "is" very basic rocket science)

K

"K Smith" wrote in message
...
Jim and Becky wrote:
I'm looking at a nice Blackfin with twin '97 Johson 225's.
I'm cautious when I think of the late 90's when OMC made faulty
Ficht
outboards.
I'm thinking '97 '98,'99?
I know the injection system had problems then a fuel
filter/reservoir issue.
Did all units need to be corrected by an OMC mechanic?
Is there a list of serial numbers for those corrected?
Are there certain years/models to be avoided?
Did Bombardier sell OMC if so what do we know about the buyer
relative to
any warrant?

It's a defective design & while Ficht, OMC, then Bomb of course never
actually admitted that, the history confirms it (OMC 7000 jobs chucked
&
US 1.3 billion of pension money peed against the wall) Bomb tried to
deceptively drop the Ficht name but quickly realised that these days
with NGs like this these, the old dealer delivered scams won't work
anymore, so sold it.

They sold the whole rec products division, and the family bought it so
there is likely more to it than that.

And the 225 is reputed to have been better than the 150/175 in those
days. True? I give up.

snip

K

Has anyone seen a good explanation of Etech and how it is different from
Ficht? They make it sound like a voice coil, ala disk drive. How do
they couple the force into the fuel? Do I have to go hunt through
Delphion.com or does someone have a patent number or two off a motor or
manual?

del cecchi

You speak of peeing against a wall as if it's a *bad* thing?

-W

"K Smith" wrote in message news:bjo42k$kf4fg$1@ID-

US 1.3 billion of pension money peed against the wall)

Major difference between that Lycoming and the Fitch. The Lycoming is a
crankcase lubed engine. I think (My OPINION) that the fitch and even the
Optimax failures come from lack of lube. I think the Opti's just have done
a better job of running more oil in to the airstream at low RPM's. Would
not be a problem if engines burned no oil.
Bill

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:19:39 +1000, K Smith
wrote:

The core issue is that they try to deliberately run the engine very
very lean at lower revs to get through the EPA regs, but it's been well
known, understood & documented since before WW2 that this is at best
very risky & in a goodly percentage of instances fatal to the engine.

Not necessarily true..... but Ficht didn't get it down right.... so
it *was* a failure. Millions of flight hours have been flown on the
lean side of the curve. Again, it *is* well documented that it is
possible, but not with the Ficht numbers.....

PS...
Don't quote Lycoming figures. Their engines are no more designed to
run lean of peak than Ficht.... they just happen to know it.




--



Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/
Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/directions.asp Where
Southport,NC is located.
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/autoupdater.htm Real Time Pictures
at My Marina
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats
at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:19:39 +1000, K Smith
wrote:


The core issue is that they try to deliberately run the engine very
very lean at lower revs to get through the EPA regs, but it's been well
known, understood & documented since before WW2 that this is at best
very risky & in a goodly percentage of instances fatal to the engine.


Not necessarily true..... but Ficht didn't get it down right.... so
it *was* a failure. Millions of flight hours have been flown on the
lean side of the curve. Again, it *is* well documented that it is
possible, but not with the Ficht numbers.....

PS...
Don't quote Lycoming figures. Their engines are no more designed to
run lean of peak than Ficht.... they just happen to know it.


Gene who's engines are designed to run lean at power as Ficht does???

OK I won't "quote" Lycoming but I should be allowed to comment:-)

(i) Yes aero engines can & are regularly run lean but as lean as 40 to
1?? That's the figure given by OMC in the early days of Ficht for their
operation a low revs, in keeping with their normal deceptions they also
claimed an 80% fuel saving!!!

(ii) Yes aero engines can & are regularly run lean but they're very low
specific output engines even the best of them not much more than 40
HP/ltr @ WOT, then they're not usually allowed to be lean if above 60%
of max manifold i.e.say 25HP/ltr. The Fichts also run extremely lean
(much more so than the aero engines) @ 25HP/ltr but
(a) The aero is a very slow turning 4 stroke with a sophisticated lub
system which sprays oil under the pistons & has proper oil temp control
(coolers).
(b) The Fichts have no piston cooling whatsoever & are 2 strokes so
have twice as many heat input events for any given period.

(iii) The aero engines are not allowed to be brought back from lean
operation to normal mixtures quickly, indeed usually they are restricted
to slow incremental richening operations over "minutes", rather than
just being suddenly subjected to a normal "full" mixture. Whereas the
Fichts have no such protection from delivering a full mixture into a
lean overheated chamber. i.e. after a long period in a no wake zone at
the upper end of the lean mode then the user spools up quickly,
delivering a full mixture onto an overheated piston & ......... well 1
in 5 what else is there to say:-)


K

del cecchi wrote:
"K Smith" wrote in message
...

Jim and Becky wrote:

I'm looking at a nice Blackfin with twin '97 Johson 225's.
I'm cautious when I think of the late 90's when OMC made faulty

Ficht

outboards.
I'm thinking '97 '98,'99?
I know the injection system had problems then a fuel

filter/reservoir issue.

Did all units need to be corrected by an OMC mechanic?
Is there a list of serial numbers for those corrected?
Are there certain years/models to be avoided?
Did Bombardier sell OMC if so what do we know about the buyer

relative to

any warrant?

It's a defective design & while Ficht, OMC, then Bomb of course never
actually admitted that, the history confirms it (OMC 7000 jobs chucked

&

US 1.3 billion of pension money peed against the wall) Bomb tried to
deceptively drop the Ficht name but quickly realised that these days
with NGs like this these, the old dealer delivered scams won't work
anymore, so sold it.


They sold the whole rec products division, and the family bought it so
there is likely more to it than that.

And the 225 is reputed to have been better than the 150/175 in those
days. True? I give up.

snip

K


Has anyone seen a good explanation of Etech and how it is different from
Ficht? They make it sound like a voice coil, ala disk drive. How do
they couple the force into the fuel? Do I have to go hunt through
Delphion.com or does someone have a patent number or two off a motor or
manual?

del cecchi




It's a scam nothing more, if there were actually a new technology we'd
know about it by now.

Sold it to the family?? gees louise what?? they couldn't find a proper
commercial buyer for actual money??? You mean they unloaded a basket
case nothing more.

Marketing BS for the bent OMC dealers to spruik.

K

So, has the Ficht issue been resolved on brand new models?
If so what would be considered the most recent year that they are considered
reliable?
What was the first year of Ficht?

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
K Smith wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:
K Smith wrote:

So be very careful because 1 in 5 Fichts fail & even accepting that
all
OMC & anyone connected to them were Ficht liars so it was probably more
than that:-). Even so at 1 in 5 it's a pretty sad lottery. Yes the boat
will be very cheap on account of it having a Ficht, but ........

Just in case you come across a similar boat with an Optimax on it be
also aware that they are better but not by much. Notwithstanding they
go
about it a totally different mechanical way, the very same basic design
fault is there.



Oh? Not that I accept your FICHT numbers (yes, I remember your
"source,"
but if Opti's are "not much better," what is the percentage of their
alleged failure? Got any documentable stats, or is this another of
those
claims you pull out of your butt?

Well it was your little OMC dealer mate from the ice box who claimed as
many Optis were failing as Fichts??

I asked if you had any documentable statistics. Do you?



And what credentials do you have to pass judgment on these engines or
anything else? You don't even have a basic engineering degree. Nor have
you ever even seen one of these engines.

You are a crock, Karen. You have no original information. You throw up
here what you read elsewhere, without any idea of what you post is
true.

Well you better find just one other reference

I asked if you had any serious credentials. Do you?


You ought to carry a warning label: "Warning: B.S. Levels Lethal with
Karen Smith of Oz."

From Harry the non boating liar this is a bit rich.

Here's a paste of more of your lies & don't try denials as you did last
time they're pastes of your own lies.

paste of Harry the king of BS from 97;

Have you ever sailed from San Francisco to Hawaii? I have.
Have you ever rounded Cape Horn? I have, twice.
Have you ever transited the Panama Canal? I have.
Have you owned more than 20 boats in your lifetime? I have.
Have you ever sailed large boats competitively? I have.
Have you ever been hundreds of miles from land in a powerboat under
your
command? I have.

Unbelievable than as it is now.

K


To a person of no accomplishment like you, probably so.
Prove they are lies.




--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

"Jim and Becky" wrote in message
. ..
So, has the Ficht issue been resolved on brand new models?
Maybe. It won't be known for a few years.

If so what would be considered the most recent year that they are
considered
reliable?
Reliability statistics for outboard motors are essentially unavailable.
One can search the web for anecdotal accounts. But they are not even as
reliable as Consumer Reports.

What was the first year of Ficht?

97 maybe? or 98.

del

"Jim and Becky" wrote in message
. ..
So, has the Ficht issue been resolved on brand new models?
If so what would be considered the most recent year that they are
considered
reliable?
What was the first year of Ficht?


FICHT history


The first production FICHT came out as a 20" shaft 150hp Johnson or Evinrude
in late 1996 and was targeted for the bass boat and sport boat models. It
worked as designed and had won the Popular Science innovation award.

In '98, the came out with the V4 90-115hp and the 175, along with extra long
shaft lengths for the offshore boats. In some applications, usually larger
boats that were over-propped, problems developed in the 150-175 series. The
then president of OMC David Jones said that about 20% had problems and had a
crash program to find out why and what to do about fixing it. According to
findings from consultants all over the world, hired by OMC, the abrasiveness
of soot buildup due to poor mid-range combustion scored the internal parts
of the motor. All the boating magazines had articles about it and what the
company was doing about it. This was published also in the Australian and
European press.

The factory then spent big bucks sending special teams around the country
installing cylinder head and software fixes to the thousands of engines that
were being used and made an upgrade kit available for dealer installation.
By then the 2000 models were ready for production and contained not only the
fixes, but a second generation design called FICHT Ram. The computers were
more powerful and now were complete engine management modules, including
charging system operation. The new motors worked well and ran even smoother
and more powerful than their predecessors. Boat tests and consumer tests
showed they were OK for all applications. For 2001 the big block V-6's were
redesigned to a larger 3.3L block for the 200-225-250hp models. The first
20-225 models came out in '99 with a 3.0L block and worked OK, they did not
have the application problems of the 150-175 series of that year, either did
the V4 90-115"s.

The 2001 Evinrude FICHTS finished a close 2nd to Yamaha in the J.D. Power's
survey that year and got an honorable mention (along with the Honda 130
4-stroke) the previous year.

OMC had money problems for quite a few years, had bad management decisions,
then had a corporate raider as an owner, then when the corporate raider was
indicted in a French banking scandal, he declared bankruptcy for the company
after raiding the pension fund, according to stories in the papers.

Bombardier bought the assets in the bankruptcy auction and re-introduced the
motors after building and up-to-date plant and improving quality control of
the vendors and manufacturers. The 2002 models and later are next to
bulletproof and are more economical to run than the equivalent 4-stroke
models. The total emissions are even less than the 4-strokes. The motors do
not run lean at power as someone posts over and over again. They use a
stratified charge at settings below 15% throttle opening, which on a
2-stroke is way less than 15% power output. Some aircraft engines are leaned
out up to 75% power output without problems, according to their operating
handbooks. My old IO-360 Continental 6 cylinder aircraft motor allowed, if I
remember correctly, 50 degrees lean of peak at cruise settings.

Since Bombardier took over, you do not hear about problems with the motors
on this or any other newsgroup. The bass boat crowd loves the HO series
200-225 models made specifically for those boats.

Like many things, the early problems in some situations were overblown and
rumors were spread mostly by those who were not familiar with the product
and what was being done. A lot of what you read and will read in this
newsgroup is from a small contingent of individuals who do not work on or
operate the motors, yet post lines and lines of hear-say, and even made up
stuff. Some even rant and rave and go off on a tangent since they do not
have the knowledge of what is happening.

FICHT and now its new generation called E-TECH are working well. The more
stringent future emission laws on the books and proposed, are easily met
today, where 4-strokes may need expensive catalytic converters, etc. to
comply. In the small motor categories, the carbureted 4-strokes cannot meet
2008 and later specs, but future E-TECH motors will. I watched a 3hp single
cylinder ETECH outboard rope start and run smoothly, and that was over a
year ago.

Bottom line is the 2000 and later 150-175hp FICHTS do not have problems with
the design, but like some things, the reputation from 6 years ago still gets
regurgitated.

Bill Grannis
service manager