Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut


--
John H

"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money." --Margaret Thatcher

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:45:46 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:18:25 -0400, John H
wrote:

Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut



Socialized medicine may suck.... I have no personal experience. The US
has only ONE limited experiment in socialized medicine. It
administered by the "Department of Veterans Affairs." Anybody have
experience with this? Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and
England?

I have had many occasions to get treatment at the VA hospital in Wash
DC. I have no gripes about the treatment I've recieved. The facility
and the promptness of care both improved greatly under the Bush
administration. But, they weren't bad before. Much of the VA griping
comes from liberals who've not used the facility.
--
John H

"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money." --Margaret Thatcher

wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:45:46 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:18:25 -0400, John H
wrote:

Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut


Socialized medicine may suck.... I have no personal experience. The US
has only ONE limited experiment in socialized medicine. It
administered by the "Department of Veterans Affairs." Anybody have
experience with this? Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and
England?


There is also Medicare but they are going broke taking 14% of every
wage earned in the country and only covering about 12% of the
population.


Interesting that no one pointed out the impossible load of bull****
Herring is trying to sell. The study in the survey compared Canada with
European countries, most of which have much more highly evolved
socialized medicine than does our neighbor to the north.


In 2008 the Health Consumer Powerhouse (HCP) and the Frontier Centre for
Public Policy presented the first Euro-Canada Health Consumer Index.
This marked the induction of Canada into a comprehensive benchmarking
exercise that analyzes the consumer responsiveness among 29 national
European healthcare systems.

The Euro-Canada Health Consumer Index (ECHCI) was an alarm bell, as it
showed that Canada was placed in the bottom quarter of the Index –
though it spent more money to achieve worse results than a large number
of European competitors. In specific:


- - -

• Canadians suffer from a healthcare system officially based on equity
and solidarity – but in reality it is a sub-standard one that ***denies
Canadian healthcare consumers many of the services taken for granted in
Europe***;

• Patient rights, access to information, and choice and services without
delay are underdeveloped in Canada and deliver low value for the money
spent;

• The positive part of the comparison is that the quality of treatment –
when delivered – puts Canada on par with most European countries.


- - -


(In other words, the problems up north are not with socialized medicine
but with Canada's implementation and operation of it)


The authors believe in the power of benchmarks. The lesson from the
HCP’s five years of healthcare benchmarking is that comparisons count.
Weak or excellent performances among the national healthcare systems are
highlighted as good examples. But to serve the intended purpose,
stakeholders must take action when the alarm bell rings.

The 2008 Index caused a stir within Canada. But that is far from enough.
Governments, patients and consumers now have a better foundation for
taking action. This year’s Index will provide additional fuel for that
fire as it confirms the poor cross-Atlantic position of Canada; 2008
evidently was no isolated poor score on Canada’s part.

Canada can ill-afford another lost year without closing the gap and the
question remains: why should Canadians be satisfied with a level of
(poor) care that is becoming outdated in Europe?

Executive Summary

In this second annual Euro-Canada Health Consumer Index (ECHCI), Canada
ends up in 23rd place. This year’s winner, the Netherlands, scores 824
points out of 1,000 edging out runner-up and last year’s winner,
Austria, by a margin of eleven points. Luxembourg and Denmark take third
and fourth place with 795 and 794 points, respectively.

In terms of medical outcomes, Canada compares reasonably well with the
best performing healthcare systems and on the generosity scale Canada
collects an average score. With respect to patient rights, waiting times
and availability of pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom
in the rankings.

Estonia prevails in the value-for-money-adjusted Bang-for-the-Buck
index, while placing 11th overall in the ECHCI Index and competing very
well with countries spending vastly more per capita on healthcare. Taken
together – Canada’s poor overall performance in the Index along with a
high expenditure on healthcare services – leads to Canada’s lastplace
ranking in the Bang-for-the-Buck index.

- - -


Nice try, Herring, but, as usual, you are full of ****.

Gene wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:11:16 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:45:46 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:18:25 -0400, John H
wrote:

Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut


Socialized medicine may suck.... I have no personal experience. The US
has only ONE limited experiment in socialized medicine. It
administered by the "Department of Veterans Affairs." Anybody have
experience with this? Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and
England?

There is also Medicare but they are going broke taking 14% of every
wage earned in the country and only covering about 12% of the
population.

I would certainly agree, that math doesn't work.

I am a great believer in "cigar box" economics. I've been called
"ignorant," but the concept has never failed me.

Those, "more educated" have explained to me how wrong I am, the
nuances of the post-industrial economy. I still think they are idiots.

If you know me, either way, I can't lose! :-)

Get the lawyers and bureaucrats out of medicine and throw the bad
doctors out on their asses. Costs will come down. And make it a pay as
you go system. Everyone needs to pull some money out of their pocket and
pay for their medical care. For those who have sustained service related
injuries it is part of their contract with the government to have those
medical issues covered by the government.

Gene wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:27:05 -0400, BAR wrote:

Gene wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:11:16 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:45:46 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:18:25 -0400, John H
wrote:

Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut


Socialized medicine may suck.... I have no personal experience. The US
has only ONE limited experiment in socialized medicine. It
administered by the "Department of Veterans Affairs." Anybody have
experience with this? Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and
England?
There is also Medicare but they are going broke taking 14% of every
wage earned in the country and only covering about 12% of the
population.
I would certainly agree, that math doesn't work.

I am a great believer in "cigar box" economics. I've been called
"ignorant," but the concept has never failed me.

Those, "more educated" have explained to me how wrong I am, the
nuances of the post-industrial economy. I still think they are idiots.

If you know me, either way, I can't lose! :-)
Get the lawyers and bureaucrats out of medicine and throw the bad
doctors out on their asses. Costs will come down. And make it a pay as
you go system. Everyone needs to pull some money out of their pocket and
pay for their medical care. For those who have sustained service related
injuries it is part of their contract with the government to have those
medical issues covered by the government.

You major error, here, is that many, if not most, lawsuits are
frivolous.....


Balanced by caregivers posting record profits by charging $20 per
aspirin, etc.....

If you seriously want to engage in this one, I have documentary
evidence from my father's death where the hospital charged:

1) Fees for days and weeks after my father's death,
2) absurd costs to the tune of top dollar for prescriptions never
taken,.
3) doctor visits, which never happened, some after his death...
4) months of double billing Medicaid.....

I won't go on, but you get the picture....

Someone at the hospital should be in jail.

On May 31, 9:37*pm, Gene wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:27:05 -0400, BAR wrote:
Gene wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:11:16 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:45:46 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:18:25 -0400, John H
wrote:

Canada is not a great example of same:

" *With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut

Socialized medicine may suck.... I have no personal experience. The US
has only ONE limited experiment in socialized medicine. It
administered by the "Department of Veterans Affairs." Anybody have
experience with this? Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and
England?

There is also Medicare but they are going broke taking 14% of every
wage earned in the country and only covering about 12% of the
population.

I would certainly agree, that math doesn't work.

I am a great believer in "cigar box" economics. I've been called
"ignorant," but the concept has never failed me.

Those, "more educated" have explained to me how wrong I am, the
nuances of the post-industrial economy. I still think they are idiots.

If you know me, either way, I can't lose! * :-)

Get the lawyers and bureaucrats out of medicine and throw the bad
doctors out on their asses. Costs will come down. And make it a pay as
you go system. Everyone needs to pull some money out of their pocket and
pay for their medical care. For those who have sustained service related
injuries it is part of their contract with the government to have those
medical issues covered by the government.

You major error, here, is that many, if not most, lawsuits are
frivolous.....



Right you are, Gene.

Speaking of....

The cartoons in this video may be weird but the words are so true.
Some of the claims this guy sings about I've heard. The American
people will sue for just about everything; even if it was there own
fault for the mistake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfO9J...e=channel_page

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:


I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear.....
AMAZING!

There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:48:03 -0400, BAR wrote:

Balanced by caregivers posting record profits by charging $20 per
aspirin, etc.....

If you seriously want to engage in this one, I have documentary
evidence from my father's death where the hospital charged:

1) Fees for days and weeks after my father's death,
2) absurd costs to the tune of top dollar for prescriptions never
taken,.
3) doctor visits, which never happened, some after his death...
4) months of double billing Medicaid.....

I won't go on, but you get the picture....

Someone at the hospital should be in jail.

Agreed but the jails are not big enough. It has become endemic in the
health care system.

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:59:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:26:40 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:


I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear.....
AMAZING!

There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.

A lot of that is just the lawyer tax. Doctors will not commit to
anything without a lot of backup tests because if they get it wrong
they get sued.
They might get sued anyway..
The main reason why drugs are slow to be approved and why they are so
expensive here compared to other countries is there are lawyers on TV
every day saying "took this drug?, I can get you some money"

Americans pay for the R&D, most other countries pay fair market value.

You've overlooked the highly specialized nature of medicine these
days. I have recent experience with a close family member being in
the hospital for a couple of weeks. Each set of organs has an
advocate, kidneys, heart and lungs, vascular, etc. Each of those is
broken into those that administer medication and those that cure
through surgery.

Surely the care is better and so are outcomes but the cost of team
medicine is unbelievable.

The procedures themselves are also astoundingly expensive. $7K for a
MRI between session, technician and expert. Maybe a total of an hour
by all invested. That's insane. They're prescribed like candy.

The poor schmuck who walks into a hospital with a problem and no
insurance will end up without money or a house in no time.

It's ****ed up and has to change.

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:01:51 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:53:02 -0400, John H
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:45:46 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:18:25 -0400, John H
wrote:

Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut



Socialized medicine may suck.... I have no personal experience. The US
has only ONE limited experiment in socialized medicine. It
administered by the "Department of Veterans Affairs." Anybody have
experience with this? Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and
England?

I have had many occasions to get treatment at the VA hospital in Wash
DC. I have no gripes about the treatment I've recieved. The facility
and the promptness of care both improved greatly under the Bush
administration. But, they weren't bad before. Much of the VA griping
comes from liberals who've not used the facility.

Again, I have no horse in this race. I have 8 folks that report to
me..... and 7 are retired military. Most of them are not
complimentary. Maybe we should go to an all pay system... including
ex-military.

Ask them to show you their VA ID card. See if their are any words
written under the picture. Those can make a big difference in their
entitlements under VA.
--
John H

"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money." --Margaret Thatcher