When I was kid, swimming in an Iowa lake, we would occasional a dense
ball of inch and a half bullheads, catfish they are. Two foot diameter
roughly a ball. So when I read a reference to a bait ball I knew what
it was like.

They showed one on 'animal snuff'. The tuna showed up and it was gone
in two and a half hours.

Someone gave us a ball of leopard frog tadpoles: one sweep of the net.
Papa was watching them. We dumped them in water too shallow for the
bass. We already had leopard frogs. so they will be OK maybe,but
without father to protect them from the other frogs.

So why do fish form dense balls? So an orca can eat them all real
fast?

Casady

On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:37:06 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:


When I was kid, swimming in an Iowa lake, we would occasional a dense
ball of inch and a half bullheads, catfish they are. Two foot diameter
roughly a ball. So when I read a reference to a bait ball I knew what
it was like.

They showed one on 'animal snuff'. The tuna showed up and it was gone
in two and a half hours.

Someone gave us a ball of leopard frog tadpoles: one sweep of the net.
Papa was watching them. We dumped them in water too shallow for the
bass. We already had leopard frogs. so they will be OK maybe,but
without father to protect them from the other frogs.

So why do fish form dense balls? So an orca can eat them all real
fast?

There are several schools of thought regarding bait balls.

The first theory is that it's a defensive mechanism in that the bait
ball appears much larger thus presenting a large "thing" that will
deter attacks and predation.

Another theory has it that predators will herd the bait into a ball
and then bust the ball in a feeding frenzy or pick off the outl layers
at leisure.

A third theory suggests that it's a panic behavior on the part of the
particular target species - a sort of concentrating strengths until an
an escape path is presented.

Personally, I think it's a combination of theories. In my experience,
with tuna in particular, I've seen large schools of tuna herd loose
schools of mackeral and herring into a more concentrated area, then
just bust through the ball in speed attacks. The interesting feature
is that the tuna themselves will essentially build up an outer wall
around the bait ball then individual tuna will peel off, bust the
bait, then rejoin the surrounding wall. It's very interesting to
watch.

I've seen it happen with freshwater fish - in particular largemouth
bass who will often pin a school of minnows against a shore line or
rock wall - usually two or three fish and they will patrol the edges
of the minnow school waiting for the eventual one or two try to break
out and the bass can pick them off at their leisure.

With respect to orcas, I would think that it's done, but I don't know
of an instance where it's ever been documented. I do know that
dolphins, a orca cousin if you will, will hard bait into balls and
have at it. It dolphins do it, it makes sense that an orca would too.

I poked around on Youtube and found this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1m6IKiO26c

On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 08:23:18 -0400, Zombie of Woodstock
wrote:

With respect to orcas, I would think that it's done, but I don't know
of an instance where it's ever been documented. I do know that
dolphins, a orca cousin if you will, will hard bait into balls and
have at it. It dolphins do it, it makes sense that an orca would too.

I have seen in one episode of 'animal snuff', orcas eating a blue
whale, seals, salmon, and sardines. The latter were in a regular
school, not a dense ball.

Casady

On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:22:36 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 08:23:18 -0400, Zombie of Woodstock
wrote:

With respect to orcas, I would think that it's done, but I don't know
of an instance where it's ever been documented. I do know that
dolphins, a orca cousin if you will, will hard bait into balls and
have at it. It dolphins do it, it makes sense that an orca would too.

I have seen in one episode of 'animal snuff', orcas eating a blue
whale, seals, salmon, and sardines. The latter were in a regular
school, not a dense ball.

I've seen that too. Sharks will routinely chase schooling fish up
against a beach and orcas will do the same to seals and penquins (I
think - seems to me I remember seeing something about that somewhere).

Orcas are larger than dolphins and a little less nimble and quick
because of it, so using a bait ball herding technique wouldn't seem to
be something they could easily do.

I don't know - it's a good question.

On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:26:06 -0400, Zombie of Woodstock
wrote:

Orcas are larger than dolphins

Much larger. We saw an orca coming south from AK. The dorsal fin is
huge, easily visible from 200 yards away.

On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:29:48 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:26:06 -0400, Zombie of Woodstock
wrote:

Orcas are larger than dolphins

Much larger. We saw an orca coming south from AK. The dorsal fin is
huge, easily visible from 200 yards away.

I have seen one up close and personal but it was years ago - the same
trip where I ran into that Kodiak bear while char fishing.

Interesting critters.

Did you see any other whales or walrus? I was watching "Deadliest
Catch" a couple of weeks ago and the "Wizard" crab boat ran into a
herd of walrus - apparently it's a good luck thing with crabbers -
where the herd of walrus are, that's where the king crab are.

"Zombie of Woodstock" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:22:36 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 08:23:18 -0400, Zombie of Woodstock
wrote:

With respect to orcas, I would think that it's done, but I don't know
of an instance where it's ever been documented. I do know that
dolphins, a orca cousin if you will, will hard bait into balls and
have at it. It dolphins do it, it makes sense that an orca would too.

I have seen in one episode of 'animal snuff', orcas eating a blue
whale, seals, salmon, and sardines. The latter were in a regular
school, not a dense ball.

I've seen that too. Sharks will routinely chase schooling fish up
against a beach and orcas will do the same to seals and penquins (I
think - seems to me I remember seeing something about that somewhere).

Orcas are larger than dolphins and a little less nimble and quick
because of it, so using a bait ball herding technique wouldn't seem to
be something they could easily do.

I don't know - it's a good question.


I recall watching a show about the balls that the bait fish form. According
to the show, the bait fish form up like that as a defensive measure. Makes
them look like a large, menacing creature, plus it reduces the chances of
any one particular fish being gobbled up.
The hunters are onto it though and let them form up, then go in for the
attack.

Eisboch

Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:37:06 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

When I was kid, swimming in an Iowa lake, we would occasional a dense
ball of inch and a half bullheads, catfish they are. Two foot diameter
roughly a ball. So when I read a reference to a bait ball I knew what
it was like.

They showed one on 'animal snuff'. The tuna showed up and it was gone
in two and a half hours.

Someone gave us a ball of leopard frog tadpoles: one sweep of the net.
Papa was watching them. We dumped them in water too shallow for the
bass. We already had leopard frogs. so they will be OK maybe,but
without father to protect them from the other frogs.

So why do fish form dense balls? So an orca can eat them all real
fast?

There are several schools of thought regarding bait balls.

The first theory is that it's a defensive mechanism in that the bait
ball appears much larger thus presenting a large "thing" that will
deter attacks and predation.

Another theory has it that predators will herd the bait into a ball
and then bust the ball in a feeding frenzy or pick off the outl layers
at leisure.

A third theory suggests that it's a panic behavior on the part of the
particular target species - a sort of concentrating strengths until an
an escape path is presented.

Personally, I think it's a combination of theories. In my experience,
with tuna in particular, I've seen large schools of tuna herd loose
schools of mackeral and herring into a more concentrated area, then
just bust through the ball in speed attacks. The interesting feature
is that the tuna themselves will essentially build up an outer wall
around the bait ball then individual tuna will peel off, bust the
bait, then rejoin the surrounding wall. It's very interesting to
watch.

I've seen it happen with freshwater fish - in particular largemouth
bass who will often pin a school of minnows against a shore line or
rock wall - usually two or three fish and they will patrol the edges
of the minnow school waiting for the eventual one or two try to break
out and the bass can pick them off at their leisure.

With respect to orcas, I would think that it's done, but I don't know
of an instance where it's ever been documented. I do know that
dolphins, a orca cousin if you will, will hard bait into balls and
have at it. It dolphins do it, it makes sense that an orca would too.

I poked around on Youtube and found this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1m6IKiO26c


Interesting. Did you catch the part about the birds diving 30'?
Incredible!

On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:48:47 -0400, DK wrote:

Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:37:06 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

When I was kid, swimming in an Iowa lake, we would occasional a dense
ball of inch and a half bullheads, catfish they are. Two foot diameter
roughly a ball. So when I read a reference to a bait ball I knew what
it was like.

They showed one on 'animal snuff'. The tuna showed up and it was gone
in two and a half hours.

Someone gave us a ball of leopard frog tadpoles: one sweep of the net.
Papa was watching them. We dumped them in water too shallow for the
bass. We already had leopard frogs. so they will be OK maybe,but
without father to protect them from the other frogs.

So why do fish form dense balls? So an orca can eat them all real
fast?

There are several schools of thought regarding bait balls.

The first theory is that it's a defensive mechanism in that the bait
ball appears much larger thus presenting a large "thing" that will
deter attacks and predation.

Another theory has it that predators will herd the bait into a ball
and then bust the ball in a feeding frenzy or pick off the outl layers
at leisure.

A third theory suggests that it's a panic behavior on the part of the
particular target species - a sort of concentrating strengths until an
an escape path is presented.

Personally, I think it's a combination of theories. In my experience,
with tuna in particular, I've seen large schools of tuna herd loose
schools of mackeral and herring into a more concentrated area, then
just bust through the ball in speed attacks. The interesting feature
is that the tuna themselves will essentially build up an outer wall
around the bait ball then individual tuna will peel off, bust the
bait, then rejoin the surrounding wall. It's very interesting to
watch.

I've seen it happen with freshwater fish - in particular largemouth
bass who will often pin a school of minnows against a shore line or
rock wall - usually two or three fish and they will patrol the edges
of the minnow school waiting for the eventual one or two try to break
out and the bass can pick them off at their leisure.

With respect to orcas, I would think that it's done, but I don't know
of an instance where it's ever been documented. I do know that
dolphins, a orca cousin if you will, will hard bait into balls and
have at it. It dolphins do it, it makes sense that an orca would too.

I poked around on Youtube and found this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1m6IKiO26c


Interesting. Did you catch the part about the birds diving 30'?
Incredible!

Somewhere on the WWW is a video of large shearwaters diving from a
huge height and flying underwater to get fish.

I wish I could find it - its way cool.

"Zombie of Woodstock" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:48:47 -0400, DK wrote:

Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:37:06 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

When I was kid, swimming in an Iowa lake, we would occasional a dense
ball of inch and a half bullheads, catfish they are. Two foot diameter
roughly a ball. So when I read a reference to a bait ball I knew what
it was like.

They showed one on 'animal snuff'. The tuna showed up and it was gone
in two and a half hours.

Someone gave us a ball of leopard frog tadpoles: one sweep of the net.
Papa was watching them. We dumped them in water too shallow for the
bass. We already had leopard frogs. so they will be OK maybe,but
without father to protect them from the other frogs.

So why do fish form dense balls? So an orca can eat them all real
fast?

There are several schools of thought regarding bait balls.

The first theory is that it's a defensive mechanism in that the bait
ball appears much larger thus presenting a large "thing" that will
deter attacks and predation.

Another theory has it that predators will herd the bait into a ball
and then bust the ball in a feeding frenzy or pick off the outl layers
at leisure.

A third theory suggests that it's a panic behavior on the part of the
particular target species - a sort of concentrating strengths until an
an escape path is presented.

Personally, I think it's a combination of theories. In my experience,
with tuna in particular, I've seen large schools of tuna herd loose
schools of mackeral and herring into a more concentrated area, then
just bust through the ball in speed attacks. The interesting feature
is that the tuna themselves will essentially build up an outer wall
around the bait ball then individual tuna will peel off, bust the
bait, then rejoin the surrounding wall. It's very interesting to
watch.

I've seen it happen with freshwater fish - in particular largemouth
bass who will often pin a school of minnows against a shore line or
rock wall - usually two or three fish and they will patrol the edges
of the minnow school waiting for the eventual one or two try to break
out and the bass can pick them off at their leisure.

With respect to orcas, I would think that it's done, but I don't know
of an instance where it's ever been documented. I do know that
dolphins, a orca cousin if you will, will hard bait into balls and
have at it. It dolphins do it, it makes sense that an orca would too.

I poked around on Youtube and found this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1m6IKiO26c


Interesting. Did you catch the part about the birds diving 30'?
Incredible!

Somewhere on the WWW is a video of large shearwaters diving from a
huge height and flying underwater to get fish.

I wish I could find it - its way cool.


Years ago. Diving the Channel Islands out of Santa Barbara. One of the guys
came up with a dead Commorant from a lobster pot at about 50'.