H the K wrote:
BAR wrote:
H the K wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:
"H the K" wrote in message
m...
wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:54:34 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 05:27:08 -0700 (PDT), Jack

wrote:

Ah... it sounded like you were complaining about the high cost of
insurance. But now I understand that you're both "retired",
with your
wife choosing to work at a basic job where the insurance cost
25% of
her pay. Nothing wrong with that.

No, my wife is 17 years younger than me and will be working for
a long
time yet, insurance or not. And she's the highest paid in her unit
except for the manager. The rest there can't afford the
insurance, so
they go to the e-room for everything. That's the problem. The
high
cost of health care/insurance. There ain't no free lunch except
the
one those paying for health insurance are buying for the others.
Whether I complain about it or not, you may have noticed that
others
are.

I agree that the people who choose to not insure, then use the
emergency room for free health care is a problem. However, if
you're
rooting for national health care so your wife can quit work and
I'll
have to pick up your health care tab... well, I have a problem
with
that.

Tell me your problem with paying my SS and I'll shed a couple
tears.
My problem isn't with paying, it's with a system that only
*some* pay
into, and a system that locks people into jobs because health
insurance isn't universally available and portable. Stifles and
puts
artificial constraints into movement in the job market, and gives
foreigners a competitive edge in trade.

--Vic
Part of our high costs are the E room. I had a toothache while
in Sorrento, Italy. A Saturday and no dentist working. I was
told to go to the local hospital and go to the "Pronto Soccorso"
entrance. Happens to be free to everyone, foreign, locals etc.
Was like a walk in doctors office. There were people there with
hurting ankle, etc. Had a Doctor, nurse & aid and clerk. No big
tests, no major equipment. If you needed more, they sent you to
the hospital, where I would have had to pay. Much cheaper setup
than our E rooms and Urgent Care clinics.
I guess if you could get it by the Doctopr/Nurse union the government
could cut a lot of this off at the pass by opening store front "Quack
in the box" operations in the places where poor people live. They
could staff it with military or ex-military medical people when they
stop the war. My niece was a navy Corpsman for 12 years. If she can
treat the aches and pains of a ship full of sailors or save a Marine
with a sucking chest wound, there is not much in the ghetto she can't
handle. Unfortunately they want her to go to another 4 year course
before she can give someone, stateside, a shot.

And I thought we were over "separate and unequal."

I wouldn't see a non-physician or nurse practitioner for a medical
issue. Why should a poor person? The nurses who draw my blood for
tests or give me a flu shot, et cetera, are college graduate nurses
who have passed board exams, are licensed, and required to continue
their educations during their professional life.





You may know about Maryland gun laws, but you know little about the
medical world. Rare is it an RN taking blood for your tests. They
are normally a phlebotomist. 4-8 months course.


Sorry, the nurses at my doctor's office are RN's or Nurse
Practitioners. Says so on their badges, on the office directories, on
the diplomas hanging on the walls of the various offices.

Ok. The last thing my sister, the Nurse Practicioner, does is draw
blood when there are RNs of any flavor or phlebotomists around. The
scutt work rolls down hill quickly.


So?

You are lying again! Or, they just don't want you fainting in the Quest
Diagnostics Lab and having an ambulance come and take you to the
hospital and then have to deal you being admitted for 24 hours worth of
observation.

Take your pick.

H the K wrote:
BAR wrote:
H the K wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:54:34 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 05:27:08 -0700 (PDT), Jack

wrote:

Ah... it sounded like you were complaining about the high cost of
insurance. But now I understand that you're both "retired", with
your
wife choosing to work at a basic job where the insurance cost 25% of
her pay. Nothing wrong with that.

No, my wife is 17 years younger than me and will be working for a
long
time yet, insurance or not. And she's the highest paid in her unit
except for the manager. The rest there can't afford the
insurance, so
they go to the e-room for everything. That's the problem. The high
cost of health care/insurance. There ain't no free lunch except the
one those paying for health insurance are buying for the others.
Whether I complain about it or not, you may have noticed that others
are.

I agree that the people who choose to not insure, then use the
emergency room for free health care is a problem. However, if
you're
rooting for national health care so your wife can quit work and I'll
have to pick up your health care tab... well, I have a problem with
that.

Tell me your problem with paying my SS and I'll shed a couple tears.
My problem isn't with paying, it's with a system that only *some* pay
into, and a system that locks people into jobs because health
insurance isn't universally available and portable. Stifles and puts
artificial constraints into movement in the job market, and gives
foreigners a competitive edge in trade.

--Vic
Part of our high costs are the E room. I had a toothache while in
Sorrento, Italy. A Saturday and no dentist working. I was told to
go to the local hospital and go to the "Pronto Soccorso" entrance.
Happens to be free to everyone, foreign, locals etc. Was like a
walk in doctors office. There were people there with hurting
ankle, etc. Had a Doctor, nurse & aid and clerk. No big tests, no
major equipment. If you needed more, they sent you to the
hospital, where I would have had to pay. Much cheaper setup than
our E rooms and Urgent Care clinics.

I guess if you could get it by the Doctopr/Nurse union the government
could cut a lot of this off at the pass by opening store front "Quack
in the box" operations in the places where poor people live. They
could staff it with military or ex-military medical people when they
stop the war. My niece was a navy Corpsman for 12 years. If she can
treat the aches and pains of a ship full of sailors or save a Marine
with a sucking chest wound, there is not much in the ghetto she can't
handle. Unfortunately they want her to go to another 4 year course
before she can give someone, stateside, a shot.


And I thought we were over "separate and unequal."

Is it equality of opportunity or equality of outcomes that drives you
Harry?

I wouldn't see a non-physician or nurse practitioner for a medical
issue. Why should a poor person? The nurses who draw my blood for
tests or give me a flu shot, et cetera, are college graduate nurses
who have passed board exams, are licensed, and required to continue
their educations during their professional life.

RN's are not required to have a college degree. Medical corpsman do
not have college degrees nor do Army medics. Most EMTs and
Phlebotomists do not have college degrees either. Why are you
shunning highly trained, certified and licensed working stiffs? Hell
some of them are in unions. Nice of you to screw over the union guys
you elitist snob.

I have a sister who started out as an LPN, became an RN, received her
BSN and now is an NP.


I don't "shop" for nurses. The ones I encounter at my doctor's
officesare college grads who have passed exams and are licensed. That's
who the doctors at our PPO hire.

Your doctors are not good businessmen.

H the K wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"thunder" wrote in message
t...
It's also true that many hospitals go beyond the requirement, regardless
of the cost. Still, I wouldn't want to be in an emergency room without
insurance. Hell, even with insurance, a major sickness is a leading
cause of personal bankruptcy.

You've touched on the forbidden facet of health care.
At what point is someone's life worth destroying the lives of loved
ones by
putting them in hopeless debt or bankrupcy?

Eisboch



Why should a family have to go into hopeless debt or bankruptcy for
medical care for a loved one, so long as there is a chance of prolonging
some sort of reasonable life for someone already here?

Your real issue is not with access it is with cost. The solution is not
insurance but with addressing the reason that the cost of health care is
increasing at such a steep rate.

That's such an anti-life position...be careful or the crazies will soon
be picketing outside your store, calling you an anti-lifer.

People fall down and hit there heads and die every day. It is noones
fault but there own.

Oh, wait...*they* only care about fetuses...once you're here, they don't
give a **** whether you live or die...

Right. Kill the innocent and let those guilty of killing others live.

BAR wrote:
H the K wrote:
BAR wrote:
H the K wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:
"H the K" wrote in message
m...
wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:54:34 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 05:27:08 -0700 (PDT), Jack

wrote:

Ah... it sounded like you were complaining about the high cost of
insurance. But now I understand that you're both "retired",
with your
wife choosing to work at a basic job where the insurance cost
25% of
her pay. Nothing wrong with that.

No, my wife is 17 years younger than me and will be working for
a long
time yet, insurance or not. And she's the highest paid in her
unit
except for the manager. The rest there can't afford the
insurance, so
they go to the e-room for everything. That's the problem. The
high
cost of health care/insurance. There ain't no free lunch
except the
one those paying for health insurance are buying for the others.
Whether I complain about it or not, you may have noticed that
others
are.

I agree that the people who choose to not insure, then use the
emergency room for free health care is a problem. However, if
you're
rooting for national health care so your wife can quit work
and I'll
have to pick up your health care tab... well, I have a problem
with
that.

Tell me your problem with paying my SS and I'll shed a couple
tears.
My problem isn't with paying, it's with a system that only
*some* pay
into, and a system that locks people into jobs because health
insurance isn't universally available and portable. Stifles
and puts
artificial constraints into movement in the job market, and gives
foreigners a competitive edge in trade.

--Vic
Part of our high costs are the E room. I had a toothache while
in Sorrento, Italy. A Saturday and no dentist working. I was
told to go to the local hospital and go to the "Pronto Soccorso"
entrance. Happens to be free to everyone, foreign, locals etc.
Was like a walk in doctors office. There were people there with
hurting ankle, etc. Had a Doctor, nurse & aid and clerk. No
big tests, no major equipment. If you needed more, they sent
you to the hospital, where I would have had to pay. Much cheaper
setup than our E rooms and Urgent Care clinics.
I guess if you could get it by the Doctopr/Nurse union the
government
could cut a lot of this off at the pass by opening store front
"Quack
in the box" operations in the places where poor people live. They
could staff it with military or ex-military medical people when they
stop the war. My niece was a navy Corpsman for 12 years. If she can
treat the aches and pains of a ship full of sailors or save a
Marine
with a sucking chest wound, there is not much in the ghetto she
can't
handle. Unfortunately they want her to go to another 4 year course
before she can give someone, stateside, a shot.

And I thought we were over "separate and unequal."

I wouldn't see a non-physician or nurse practitioner for a medical
issue. Why should a poor person? The nurses who draw my blood for
tests or give me a flu shot, et cetera, are college graduate
nurses who have passed board exams, are licensed, and required to
continue their educations during their professional life.





You may know about Maryland gun laws, but you know little about the
medical world. Rare is it an RN taking blood for your tests. They
are normally a phlebotomist. 4-8 months course.


Sorry, the nurses at my doctor's office are RN's or Nurse
Practitioners. Says so on their badges, on the office directories,
on the diplomas hanging on the walls of the various offices.

Ok. The last thing my sister, the Nurse Practicioner, does is draw
blood when there are RNs of any flavor or phlebotomists around. The
scutt work rolls down hill quickly.


So?

You are lying again! Or, they just don't want you fainting in the Quest
Diagnostics Lab and having an ambulance come and take you to the
hospital and then have to deal you being admitted for 24 hours worth of
observation.

Take your pick.


What are you crazy boys raving about?

BAR wrote:
H the K wrote:
BAR wrote:
H the K wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:54:34 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 05:27:08 -0700 (PDT), Jack

wrote:

Ah... it sounded like you were complaining about the high cost of
insurance. But now I understand that you're both "retired",
with your
wife choosing to work at a basic job where the insurance cost
25% of
her pay. Nothing wrong with that.

No, my wife is 17 years younger than me and will be working for a
long
time yet, insurance or not. And she's the highest paid in her unit
except for the manager. The rest there can't afford the
insurance, so
they go to the e-room for everything. That's the problem. The high
cost of health care/insurance. There ain't no free lunch except the
one those paying for health insurance are buying for the others.
Whether I complain about it or not, you may have noticed that others
are.

I agree that the people who choose to not insure, then use the
emergency room for free health care is a problem. However, if
you're
rooting for national health care so your wife can quit work and
I'll
have to pick up your health care tab... well, I have a problem with
that.

Tell me your problem with paying my SS and I'll shed a couple tears.
My problem isn't with paying, it's with a system that only *some*
pay
into, and a system that locks people into jobs because health
insurance isn't universally available and portable. Stifles and
puts
artificial constraints into movement in the job market, and gives
foreigners a competitive edge in trade.

--Vic
Part of our high costs are the E room. I had a toothache while in
Sorrento, Italy. A Saturday and no dentist working. I was told
to go to the local hospital and go to the "Pronto Soccorso"
entrance. Happens to be free to everyone, foreign, locals etc.
Was like a walk in doctors office. There were people there with
hurting ankle, etc. Had a Doctor, nurse & aid and clerk. No big
tests, no major equipment. If you needed more, they sent you to
the hospital, where I would have had to pay. Much cheaper setup
than our E rooms and Urgent Care clinics.

I guess if you could get it by the Doctopr/Nurse union the government
could cut a lot of this off at the pass by opening store front "Quack
in the box" operations in the places where poor people live. They
could staff it with military or ex-military medical people when they
stop the war. My niece was a navy Corpsman for 12 years. If she can
treat the aches and pains of a ship full of sailors or save a Marine
with a sucking chest wound, there is not much in the ghetto she can't
handle. Unfortunately they want her to go to another 4 year course
before she can give someone, stateside, a shot.


And I thought we were over "separate and unequal."

Is it equality of opportunity or equality of outcomes that drives you
Harry?

I wouldn't see a non-physician or nurse practitioner for a medical
issue. Why should a poor person? The nurses who draw my blood for
tests or give me a flu shot, et cetera, are college graduate nurses
who have passed board exams, are licensed, and required to continue
their educations during their professional life.

RN's are not required to have a college degree. Medical corpsman do
not have college degrees nor do Army medics. Most EMTs and
Phlebotomists do not have college degrees either. Why are you
shunning highly trained, certified and licensed working stiffs? Hell
some of them are in unions. Nice of you to screw over the union guys
you elitist snob.

I have a sister who started out as an LPN, became an RN, received her
BSN and now is an NP.


I don't "shop" for nurses. The ones I encounter at my doctor's
officesare college grads who have passed exams and are licensed.
That's who the doctors at our PPO hire.

Your doctors are not good businessmen.

Really? My guess is that every one of them makes a lot more than you do.

"H the K" wrote in message
...

Why should a family have to go into hopeless debt or bankruptcy for
medical care for a loved one, so long as there is a chance of prolonging
some sort of reasonable life for someone already here?

That's such an anti-life position...be careful or the crazies will soon be
picketing outside your store, calling you an anti-lifer.


Oh, wait...*they* only care about fetuses...once you're here, they don't
give a **** whether you live or die...


:)

I hardly think anyone will be picketing outside my shop. At least not about
that subject.
The answer lies in the fact that most people make private, responsible
decisions.
I have. Have you?

Eisboch

"thunder" wrote in message
t...
On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 20:40:26 -0400, Eisboch wrote:

"thunder" wrote in message
t...

It's also true that many hospitals go beyond the requirement,
regardless of the cost. Still, I wouldn't want to be in an emergency
room without insurance. Hell, even with insurance, a major sickness is
a leading cause of personal bankruptcy.

You've touched on the forbidden facet of health care. At what point is
someone's life worth destroying the lives of loved ones by putting them
in hopeless debt or bankrupcy?

If someone has a terminal illness, I might balk at spending hundreds of
thousands of dollars, for a few weeks more life. Short of that, I value
life far more than dollars. I understand your point. The last few
months of a life, probably cost more, medically, than the entire rest of
that life, but ...

Both of my folks, both in their nineties, are still going *relatively*
strong. My Mom just had a carpal tunnel operation. Now, some people
might say that's excessive. Not me, I saw the pain she was in.
Fortunately, they have good insurance, but if they hadn't, I wouldn't
have hesitated to pick up the tab.

Personally, I don't want to be calling those shots. Nor do I want the
insurance companies, nor the government calling them. I'll leave those
calls in the hands of a doctor. Anything short of that, smacks of
eugenics.


I certainly don't think a carpal tunnel operation qualifies for the
decisions I alluded to.
Good for her.

I was thinking more of terminal conditions and the costs associated with
keeping people alive for a relatively short period of time. My father
developed stomach cancer back in 1998. He knew, as did I, what the
prognosis was and although he had health insurance coverage for all kinds of
treatment attempts, he made the decision to forego them and lived his final
months with some dignity.

Like I mentioned to Harry, it becomes a personal, responsible decision.

Eisboch

"H the K" wrote in message
m...


I don't "shop" for nurses. The ones I encounter at my doctor's officesare
college grads who have passed exams and are licensed. That's who the
doctors at our PPO hire.


Harry, we can only take you for your word, but your experience is very much
in the minority.
Almost elitist in a way.

In this dismal economy and rising unemployment, some of the few bright spots
for careers are in the fields of medical technicians, EMT's, nurses and
aids that do not require a college education. They require training and
certification of course, but they are fully qualified to perform many basic
procedures, leaving the RNs and Doctors free to deal with more important
activities.

With the shortage of RN's, we should be encouraging it.

"H the K" wrote in message
m...


Company loyalty? Commitment to the company? Give your life to the company
so that you can be laid off two years before your retirement or your job
is shifted overseas?

The only loyalty as a worker a working person should have is to
himself/herself and the family.

It used to be different...but that was before greed became the most
important corporate goal.


Y A W N

The more you keep repeating this mantra, the more you sound like someone who
consistantly got their ass kicked over the years.

You snooze, you lose.

Eisboch

On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:14:16 -0400, Eisboch wrote:


I was thinking more of terminal conditions and the costs associated with
keeping people alive for a relatively short period of time.

I understand that, and that's where decisions get very difficult. As
national policy, however, I would be looking to save costs in other
places, rather than life and death decisions. I have yet to hear a valid
reason our health costs are nearly twice that of other industrial
nations. There has to be considerable savings to be found in that 7-8%
GDP.