"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"H the K" wrote in message
...
On 11/3/09 8:37 PM, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 16:43:35 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Perhaps you'd like to flood Yosemite valley? Terrible thing natural
beauty.
We sure don't need it.

That is completely stupid and so typical.

Go away and play with Harry and jps - they share your delusions.

Leave the adults alone.


Awwww...the newsgroup wookie is upset...again.

Was stupid. San Francisco already flooded Little Yosemite Valley.

Nope. It was Hetch Hetchy. Not part of Yosemite Valley. It's part of the
National Park, however.


--
Nom=de=Plume


Hetch Hetchy dam, but the valley was known as Little Yosemite Valley. One
of our favorite lakes is Cherry Lake which is not very far away as the
crow flys, but a long way by road. One of the Hetch Hetchy system lakes.

So, do you think we should do the same to Yosemite? After all, it's just got
natural beauty going for it.

--
Nom=de=Plume

On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 01:11:04 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 15:58:30 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

My home (Florida) has been completely ruined by tourism
whereas if our economy had been built on energy we'd still have our
beaches and salt marshes.

Don't be so sure
Have you heard about "Cape Wind"?

Another example of envimoronmentalist hyprocrisy.

http://www.saveoursound.org/site/PageServer

Globe editorials in support.

http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/gree...wind_turbines/

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ed...nst_cape_wind/

Fortunately, it looks like it's going to get done.

http://www.capewind.org/news1018.htm

If Ted Kennedy were alive, it wouldn't be happening. :)

nom=de=plume wrote:
"Tosk" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:11:54 -0800 (PST), Loogypicker
wrote:

On Nov 3, 7:10 am, Tosk wrote:
In article ,

says...







Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:41:32 -0500, "D.Duck" wrote:
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c....View&FileStor...
So as a man who studies this type of thing in much more depth
than I,
what do you think of our "significant" number of BOEs as compared
to all
other countries with the exception of Russia?
Noted that the vast majority of our reserves are in coal.
Two things come immediately to mind.
One - we need to make more use of the proven coal reserves up to
and
including gasification, liquification and burning. We need to work
on
clean coal technology and CO2 sequestration by allowing more pilot
plants and research into various techniques. That's where we seem
to
be failing miserably.
A recent example is what's happened in Lindon, NJ. I forget the
company, but they wanted to build a 750 megawatt coal fired
station,
sequester the CO2 by pumping it offshore into a salt dome where it
woud stay permanently locked up. The technology is available now
and
it seems like a good concept. Unfortunetly, the Enviromentalists
are
creating havoc with the plan to the point where it probably will
be
abandoned thus losing the facility and needed power generation.
Two - we need to start exploring and drilling off on our own to
see
what may, or may not, be easily accessible onshore, inshore and
offshore. There are some areas off New Jersey and California that
appear to have the correct geological formations (domes, salt
domes
and such) to contain easily recoverable oil - some think the equal
of
all that Arabian Peninsula has ever contained, but we aren't
allowed
to drill for various reasons - mostly political. And it's not like
new
discoveries are impossible - consider Brazil's Guari and Tupi
fields
which are recent discoveries - it's out there, we just have to
find
it.
Here's a list for you to consider - the amount of fossil fuel
needed
to produce 1,000,000 BTUs.
Natural Gas: 1,000 cubic feet
Coal: 83.34 pounds @ 12,000 Btu/pound
Propane: 10.917 gallons @ 91,000 Btu/gallon
Gasoline: 8.0 gallons @125,000 Btu/gallon
Fuel Oil #2: 7.194 gallons @ 139,000 Btu/gallon
Fuel Oil #6: 6.67 gallons @ 150,000 Btu/gallon
You'd need a lot of wind farms and solar panels to produce similar
results to fossil fuels.
Nice summary....we have some work to do, particularly on the
political
front.
What cracks me up is the idea that a 100 by 100 foot fenced off area
for
drilling might hurt migrating animals, but 40 acres of solar panels is
just fine...

--
Wafa free again.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
If a fence is put across a migration route, that's totally different
from a solar array that is off of the ground.

Solar arrays do their best in the desert, where there's lots of
sunshine. They also need water for cooling, which is not all that
plentiful in the desert.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/30/bu...t/30water.html

or: http://tinyurl.com/yftpjv8

Now nuclear would be a good idea, but most liberals try to push
something else. They really don't want to solve the problem.

They'd rather make Al Gore, et al, very, very, rich.

Wonder how much money Gore shoves in 'Bama's direction?
Well, he has had 5 secret meetings at the White house so far.. Something
the left railed Bush for.. But it's ok for Obama, harryism...

--
Wafa free again.


You forgot to mention Bill Ayers' recent visits... or Rev. Wright's.

Have they been to a pajama party at the white house? Wouldn't surprise
me a bit.

nom=de=plume wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 16:43:35 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Perhaps you'd like to flood Yosemite valley? Terrible thing natural
beauty.
We sure don't need it.
That is completely stupid and so typical.

Go away and play with Harry and jps - they share your delusions.

Leave the adults alone.


You're the one who claimed things shouldn't be preserved because of natural
beauty.

Like I've said before, you're here with me; I'm not here with you. Get used
to it.

I think your fat head is about to explode.

On 11/3/09 11:21 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
"Tom Francis - wrote in
message ...
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 16:43:35 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Perhaps you'd like to flood Yosemite valley? Terrible thing natural
beauty.
We sure don't need it.

That is completely stupid and so typical.

Go away and play with Harry and jps - they share your delusions.

Leave the adults alone.


You're the one who claimed things shouldn't be preserved because of natural
beauty.

Like I've said before, you're here with me; I'm not here with you. Get used
to it.



Now you've gone and done it...you've upset rec.boat's prima donna.

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 01:11:04 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 15:58:30 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

My home (Florida) has been completely ruined by tourism
whereas if our economy had been built on energy we'd still have our
beaches and salt marshes.
Don't be so sure
Have you heard about "Cape Wind"?

Another example of envimoronmentalist hyprocrisy.

http://www.saveoursound.org/site/PageServer

Globe editorials in support.

http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/gree...wind_turbines/

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ed...nst_cape_wind/

Fortunately, it looks like it's going to get done.

http://www.capewind.org/news1018.htm

If Ted Kennedy were alive, it wouldn't be happening. :)

Wouldn't it be swell if each of those windmills was dedicated and named
after a gasbag politician. The windmill "SS Teddy Kennedy" and other
Kennedy windmills would be front and center in the Kennedy compound
field of view.

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:57:28 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

I have also flown at low altitude over arrays of wind turbines and was
appalled at how destructive they were to the environment. Each
required a road to service the turbine regularly and the turbines were
like ugly blotches on the ridges. By contrast, the average
producing oil well can barely be noticed even from low altitude and
gas wells are even more invisible.

There are at least 500 windmills visible from I-35 and I-90 between
Des Moines and Rochester, Minn. No roads whatever. Not even one. As
for oil wells, there are visible moving parts roughly the size of a
car that will attract the eye from two miles up.

Casady

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:57:28 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

I have also flown at low altitude over arrays of wind turbines and was
appalled at how destructive they were to the environment. Each
required a road to service the turbine regularly and the turbines were
like ugly blotches on the ridges. By contrast, the average
producing oil well can barely be noticed even from low altitude and
gas wells are even more invisible.

There are at least 500 windmills visible from I-35 and I-90 between
Des Moines and Rochester, Minn. No roads whatever. Not even one. As
for oil wells, there are visible moving parts roughly the size of a
car that will attract the eye from two miles up.

Casady

So, how do they service them? Or is it just so flat and clear they don't
need roads, which of course would make your "point" moot...??

--
Wafa free again.

Bill McKee wrote:
"Loogypicker" wrote in message
...
On Nov 3, 2:23 pm, Tosk wrote:
In article 376ab62b-c969-4f58-9ac0-80139e5831d7
@p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com, says...







On Nov 3, 1:27 pm, NotNow wrote:
Tosk wrote:
In article fef40ffb-ca78-4a34-97fe-1f5ba4ada116
@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com, says...
On Nov 3, 7:10 am, Tosk wrote:
In article ,

says...
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:41:32 -0500, "D.Duck"
wrote:
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c....View&FileStor...
So as a man who studies this type of thing in much more depth
than I,
what do you think of our "significant" number of BOEs as
compared to all
other countries with the exception of Russia?
Noted that the vast majority of our reserves are in coal.
Two things come immediately to mind.
One - we need to make more use of the proven coal reserves up to
and
including gasification, liquification and burning. We need to
work on
clean coal technology and CO2 sequestration by allowing more
pilot
plants and research into various techniques. That's where we
seem to
be failing miserably.
A recent example is what's happened in Lindon, NJ. I forget the
company, but they wanted to build a 750 megawatt coal fired
station,
sequester the CO2 by pumping it offshore into a salt dome where
it
woud stay permanently locked up. The technology is available now
and
it seems like a good concept. Unfortunetly, the Enviromentalists
are
creating havoc with the plan to the point where it probably will
be
abandoned thus losing the facility and needed power generation.
Two - we need to start exploring and drilling off on our own to
see
what may, or may not, be easily accessible onshore, inshore and
offshore. There are some areas off New Jersey and California
that
appear to have the correct geological formations (domes, salt
domes
and such) to contain easily recoverable oil - some think the
equal of
all that Arabian Peninsula has ever contained, but we aren't
allowed
to drill for various reasons - mostly political. And it's not
like new
discoveries are impossible - consider Brazil's Guari and Tupi
fields
which are recent discoveries - it's out there, we just have to
find
it.
Here's a list for you to consider - the amount of fossil fuel
needed
to produce 1,000,000 BTUs.
Natural Gas: 1,000 cubic feet
Coal: 83.34 pounds @ 12,000 Btu/pound
Propane: 10.917 gallons @ 91,000 Btu/gallon
Gasoline: 8.0 gallons @125,000 Btu/gallon
Fuel Oil #2: 7.194 gallons @ 139,000 Btu/gallon
Fuel Oil #6: 6.67 gallons @ 150,000 Btu/gallon
You'd need a lot of wind farms and solar panels to produce
similar
results to fossil fuels.
Nice summary....we have some work to do, particularly on the
political
front.
What cracks me up is the idea that a 100 by 100 foot fenced off
area for
drilling might hurt migrating animals, but 40 acres of solar
panels is
just fine...
--
Wafa free again.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
If a fence is put across a migration route, that's totally
different
from a solar array that is off of the ground.
Really, these are "off the ground" enough to not effect migration?
Bull...
This is not far enough off the ground for migration, acres and
acres...
http://www.treehugger.com/solar-farm-array-bavaria.jpg
http://teeic.anl.gov/images/photos/Nrel_flatPV15539.jpg
http://green-gossip.com/wp-content/u...bhagats_solar-
array.jpg
http://images.publicradio.org/conten...6_solar-farm2_
33.jpg
Compared to this...
http://www.making-ripples.com/images...image013_2.jpg
http://www.questdrilling.com/images/index1.jpg
http://www.airphotona.com/stockimg/images/00198.jpg
http://www.valleyserver.com/images/R...web%20copy.jpg
You tell me which is more invasive.. Besides, do you know how toxic
the
areas in china where they make these panels is?
Manufacturing in the U.S. and thus gaining jobs will fix that. What
could be more "invasive" than a fence built on a migration route? Next
you'll be trying to tell everyone that mining oil sands is good for
the
environment.
Lovely site, isn't it?
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...son.com/images...
I've spent more time on hundreds of drilling rigs in remote places in
the western USA than I care to remember. The wildlife paid very
little attention to them. In fact, one of the greatest dangers was
not from the drilling operations but from the hazard of hitting an
elk, deer or antelope while trying to get to the rig. I've been on
rig sites that were abandoned and a month later in WY you could not
tell where it had been they were so good at replacing the terrain and
vegetation.
In AK, where the AK pipeline was a major controversy in the early 70s
with people worrying about its effect on wildlife, the wildlife
ignores it because it is built so they can walk under it. Rig sites
are similar, animals ignore them and once the drill rig is gone with
the final pumps in place occupying only a few square feet ther eis no
effect at all on the animals.
I have also flown at low altitude over arrays of wind turbines and was
appalled at how destructive they were to the environment. Each
required a road to service the turbine regularly and the turbines were
like ugly blotches on the ridges. By contrast, the average
producing oil well can barely be noticed even from low altitude and
gas wells are even more invisible.
Large arrays of solar receivers are likely to be extremely destructive
to the local environment by blocking sunlight to the ground and
blocking air flow and generally being a permanent impediment to
wildlife movement. By contrast, drilling operations are short lived
and a producing well is very inobtrusive.
Thanks for clarifying that even though I am sure several here will poo,
poo, it. Those arrays must destroy the landscape, they allow nothing to
"be" around them. Grass, animals, etc. can't survive with them. That is
why I have so much cynicism about the proponents, with so many of their
arguments being so ridiculous and blatantly false...

--
Wafa free again.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're against solar power why?

I live near one of the largest wind farm areas in the world. The complaints
are they kill lots of raptors. And they do. They are high enough that the
cows and 4 legged critters do not get hit, but the birds going after the
huge rodent populatin are decimated. Go to the Oil Patch of Calif. Taft.
Oil pipes and pumps everywhere. Seems to be ok for the rodents, birds and
coyotes. Not a lot of deer in the desert.


Ummmm, I was talking about solar arrays......

Frogwatch wrote:
On Nov 3, 6:44 pm, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:
On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 00:44:30 -0500, "D.Duck" wrote:
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:41:32 -0500, "D.Duck" wrote:
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c....View&FileStor...
So as a man who studies this type of thing in much more depth than I,
what do you think of our "significant" number of BOEs as compared to all
other countries with the exception of Russia?
Noted that the vast majority of our reserves are in coal.
Two things come immediately to mind.
One - we need to make more use of the proven coal reserves up to and
including gasification, liquification and burning. We need to work on
clean coal technology and CO2 sequestration by allowing more pilot
plants and research into various techniques. That's where we seem to
be failing miserably.
A recent example is what's happened in Lindon, NJ. I forget the
company, but they wanted to build a 750 megawatt coal fired station,
sequester the CO2 by pumping it offshore into a salt dome where it
woud stay permanently locked up. The technology is available now and
it seems like a good concept. Unfortunetly, the Enviromentalists are
creating havoc with the plan to the point where it probably will be
abandoned thus losing the facility and needed power generation.
Two - we need to start exploring and drilling off on our own to see
what may, or may not, be easily accessible onshore, inshore and
offshore. There are some areas off New Jersey and California that
appear to have the correct geological formations (domes, salt domes
and such) to contain easily recoverable oil - some think the equal of
all that Arabian Peninsula has ever contained, but we aren't allowed
to drill for various reasons - mostly political. And it's not like new
discoveries are impossible - consider Brazil's Guari and Tupi fields
which are recent discoveries - it's out there, we just have to find
it.
Here's a list for you to consider - the amount of fossil fuel needed
to produce 1,000,000 BTUs.
Natural Gas: 1,000 cubic feet
Coal: 83.34 pounds @ 12,000 Btu/pound
Propane: 10.917 gallons @ 91,000 Btu/gallon
Gasoline: 8.0 gallons @125,000 Btu/gallon
Fuel Oil #2: 7.194 gallons @ 139,000 Btu/gallon
Fuel Oil #6: 6.67 gallons @ 150,000 Btu/gallon
You'd need a lot of wind farms and solar panels to produce similar
results to fossil fuels.
Nice summary....we have some work to do, particularly on the political
front.
What we need to do is just do it - no pussy footing around. The real
problem is that there are too many lawyers wanting to make a buck or
two by obstructing permits. And you have a group of environmentalists
who hate everything other than technology that doesn't even exist yet.

Or even technology that does exist for that matter. I recently read
an article (somewhere - maybe CaliBill posted it or knows of it) where
a company wanted to build a pilot sun/wind farm in some desolate area
of California - nothing around for miles, minimally invasive, no
protected plant species or animals to speak of and the project was
killed because of the Serria Club's (and others) objection to spoiling
the "natural beauty" of the area.

That's what has to stop.

I have no problem with solar as long as people stop believing it is
somehow without environmental problems.
BTW, an average oil well or gas well requires far less maintenance
than a wind turbine so the roads are used far less. As far as the
view is concerned, I'd rather have oil or gas wells than wind
turbines.
Of course, given the choice between tourism in Florida and oil/gas
wells in the Gulf, I'd easily choose oil/gas as being far cleaner than
tourism. My home (Florida) has been completely ruined by tourism
whereas if our economy had been built on energy we'd still have our
beaches and salt marshes.

Everything we do leaves a mark on the Earth. It's how big of a mark you
want to leave.