wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:48:36 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

A few lawsuits in public facilities resulting from accidents involving
electrical wiring installed by non-licensed "handymen" ought to open
some eyes.

sovereign immunity laws make it pretty hard to sue the state.




This wouldn't apply to the situation you described.

It is certainly the one they hide behind, successfully up to this
point.
As a state inspector, I had immunity too with a very few exceptions.
Basically if I showed up, didn't take a bribe and wasn't drunk, it
didn't matter if I missed a violation.
The reality was I was very careful and looked at everything. Why
wouldn't I? I was making $58.50 an hour, portal to portal and
expenses. What would be my hurry? I even fixed things for the rangers
when I found a problem. Since I was a state contractor, it was legal
for me to do it too.


They? Missing a violation is one thing. Deliberately causing a problem is
another. I stand by my comment.


--
Nom=de=Plume

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:47:27 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

They were being displaced by a park ranger making $12 an hour, doing
electrical work in areas that were open to the public. I think I would
rather have a journeyman electrician doing it who had the misfortune
of being caught with 3 joints in his sock.


Wrong again...
http://www.rangercareers.com/parkran...ngersalary.htm

Read the first sentence.
That is a federal ranger, not a Florida DEP ranger
It is hard to get a federal park ranger job. Too many GSers are firing
off 171s every time a job gets advertised trying to get out from
behind their desk and get to the place they want to retire.

This is from the Florida park service web site
"What kind of training/schooling is required in your position?
In order to apply for a Park Ranger position, you must have a high
school diploma or GED, and a year of work experience in public
contact. These are just general requirements and each park may have
additional skills or knowledge required according to the position
being advertised. Even with the modest pay scale, about $2,000 a
month, these positions are highly competitive. It seems that everyone
wants to be a Park Ranger!"

The reality is most applicants are college graduates and most are in
pursuit of their masters. Being a ranger is the entry level job for
environmental specialist. The jumping off point for any serious DEP
job. My son in law was a ranger with a masters in coastal ecology. Now
he is a land manager for about a million acres of wetlands in south
central Florida for SFWMD and going to law school. (The next ticket
you have to punch to get to the huge bucks)



So, they're getting good work experience. I don't see the problem.

--
Nom=de=Plume

On 4/13/10 5:25 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:43:22 -0400,
wrote:

I am all for training the imprisoned so they learn to read, write, and
do math, and then training them for real jobs so that when they are
released, they can compete for honest work that will allow them to
support themselves and if they have them, families. There are few things
dumber than warehousing prisoners and then expecting them to "go
straight" once they are released.

A proper apprenticeship program in a prison can train those with
aptitude to become skilled workers. Completing such a program on the
outside takes three to four years...so prisoners have the time to learn
a bankable skillset. Once they learn the basics in a few months, they
can be supervised while they work on prison projects and earn some money
for that.

Those close to release can be taken out to Habitat for Humanity and
similar projects, where no pay is involved. That'll help integrate them
back into society.


he problem is that in a trade, learning is doing. They have to have a
place to work


There's plenty of handyman work available within prisons and, as I
stated, out on non-pay jobs like those of Habitat.

--
http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:51:40 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

They can cut the grass in the playground and pick up trash, they just
can't screw in a light bulb.

So?

You were the one that brought up rapists working at the school.
In real life I doubt they really work on school grounds, that would be
a school board employee. but they can be cutting the grass across the
street


I'm not sure they should be doing that either.

--
Nom=de=Plume

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:53:36 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

A few lawsuits in public facilities resulting from accidents involving
electrical wiring installed by non-licensed "handymen" ought to open
some eyes.

sovereign immunity laws make it pretty hard to sue the state.




This wouldn't apply to the situation you described.

It is certainly the one they hide behind, successfully up to this
point.
As a state inspector, I had immunity too with a very few exceptions.
Basically if I showed up, didn't take a bribe and wasn't drunk, it
didn't matter if I missed a violation.
The reality was I was very careful and looked at everything. Why
wouldn't I? I was making $58.50 an hour, portal to portal and
expenses. What would be my hurry? I even fixed things for the rangers
when I found a problem. Since I was a state contractor, it was legal
for me to do it too.


They? Missing a violation is one thing. Deliberately causing a problem is
another. I stand by my comment.


Then you are standing by a comment you didn't make. You said
"A few lawsuits in public facilities resulting from accidents..."

Accidents are not deliberate by definition.


If the person is untrained in a particular field, say as an electrician, and
decides to or is hired to do a task, the party that's harmed due to an
accident could prevail in a lawsuit.

--
Nom=de=Plume

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:54:24 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:47:27 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

They were being displaced by a park ranger making $12 an hour, doing
electrical work in areas that were open to the public. I think I would
rather have a journeyman electrician doing it who had the misfortune
of being caught with 3 joints in his sock.


Wrong again...
http://www.rangercareers.com/parkran...ngersalary.htm

Read the first sentence.
That is a federal ranger, not a Florida DEP ranger
It is hard to get a federal park ranger job. Too many GSers are firing
off 171s every time a job gets advertised trying to get out from
behind their desk and get to the place they want to retire.

This is from the Florida park service web site
"What kind of training/schooling is required in your position?
In order to apply for a Park Ranger position, you must have a high
school diploma or GED, and a year of work experience in public
contact. These are just general requirements and each park may have
additional skills or knowledge required according to the position
being advertised. Even with the modest pay scale, about $2,000 a
month, these positions are highly competitive. It seems that everyone
wants to be a Park Ranger!"

The reality is most applicants are college graduates and most are in
pursuit of their masters. Being a ranger is the entry level job for
environmental specialist. The jumping off point for any serious DEP
job. My son in law was a ranger with a masters in coastal ecology. Now
he is a land manager for about a million acres of wetlands in south
central Florida for SFWMD and going to law school. (The next ticket
you have to punch to get to the huge bucks)



So, they're getting good work experience. I don't see the problem.

Exactly but they are not making $47,000 as you asserted, it is the $12
an hour that you said I was wrong about.

Some time you are going to have to admit I know what I am talking
about



Sure. You know what you're talking about sometimes.

However, perhaps you can explain how valuable work experience is at whatever
the hourly wage happens to be at the time.

--
Nom=de=Plume

On 4/13/10 10:08 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 17:26:25 -0400,
wrote:

Those close to release can be taken out to Habitat for Humanity and
similar projects, where no pay is involved. That'll help integrate them
back into society.


he problem is that in a trade, learning is doing. They have to have a
place to work


There's plenty of handyman work available within prisons and, as I
stated, out on non-pay jobs like those of Habitat.

--
A handy man job is not really going to count towards a trade
apprenticeship and in real life there is no shortage of labor to do
all the work that needs to be done inside the wire. That is why they
can come up with journeymen electricians to do the most trivial jobs.
The will have 5 or 6 inmates working on a job that would only rate 2
on a union job and one anywhere else.,
You have the same problem with habitat as you have with working in the
parks. The real trades do not want that competition.

BTW talking about Habitat, that is mostly a joke anyway. My wife built
several habitat houses in Bonita for Centex. The process was, they had
a gang of volunteers come in on the weekend with the TV crews and the
politicians. Then on Monday her regular paid crews would come in, rip
it all out and build the house back right. It was seldom that anything
was really done right by the volunteers. Part of the problem is we had
northern volunteers came down and did things like they used to up
north 20 years ago, not how it is required to be done under our codes
(or even the current code up north). Most builders up north don't
understand how you have to build a 130 MPH wind code rated house
I ran into a lot of that with the volunteers in the park system too.
We were on the 1996 code and these guys stopped learning sometime
around the 68 code.



You're trying to build universal truths out of anecdotes. My father in
law works on Habitat houses, from pouring slabs to putting shingles on
roofs and sodding lawns. His experiences are different from the ones you
are relating.

--
http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym

"hk" wrote in message
news
On 4/13/10 10:08 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 17:26:25 -0400,
wrote:

Those close to release can be taken out to Habitat for Humanity and
similar projects, where no pay is involved. That'll help integrate
them
back into society.


he problem is that in a trade, learning is doing. They have to have a
place to work


There's plenty of handyman work available within prisons and, as I
stated, out on non-pay jobs like those of Habitat.

--
A handy man job is not really going to count towards a trade
apprenticeship and in real life there is no shortage of labor to do
all the work that needs to be done inside the wire. That is why they
can come up with journeymen electricians to do the most trivial jobs.
The will have 5 or 6 inmates working on a job that would only rate 2
on a union job and one anywhere else.,
You have the same problem with habitat as you have with working in the
parks. The real trades do not want that competition.

BTW talking about Habitat, that is mostly a joke anyway. My wife built
several habitat houses in Bonita for Centex. The process was, they had
a gang of volunteers come in on the weekend with the TV crews and the
politicians. Then on Monday her regular paid crews would come in, rip
it all out and build the house back right. It was seldom that anything
was really done right by the volunteers. Part of the problem is we had
northern volunteers came down and did things like they used to up
north 20 years ago, not how it is required to be done under our codes
(or even the current code up north). Most builders up north don't
understand how you have to build a 130 MPH wind code rated house
I ran into a lot of that with the volunteers in the park system too.
We were on the 1996 code and these guys stopped learning sometime
around the 68 code.



You're trying to build universal truths out of anecdotes. My father in law
works on Habitat houses, from pouring slabs to putting shingles on roofs
and sodding lawns. His experiences are different from the ones you are
relating.

--
http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym

He could be correct. I and some of locals have been working on Habitat
houses for near 20 years. We go in and have to correct a lot of
mistakes.made by the younger crews that are there from high school, or
college. But not all Habitat's builds are like that. Lots, due to
inexperience, put a lot more nails in than required. During one of the
super hurricanes in Florida, the only houses standing in an area were the
Habitat for Humanity houses.

hk wrote:
On 4/13/10 10:08 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 17:26:25 -0400,
wrote:

Those close to release can be taken out to Habitat for Humanity and
similar projects, where no pay is involved. That'll help integrate
them
back into society.


he problem is that in a trade, learning is doing. They have to have a
place to work


There's plenty of handyman work available within prisons and, as I
stated, out on non-pay jobs like those of Habitat.

--
A handy man job is not really going to count towards a trade
apprenticeship and in real life there is no shortage of labor to do
all the work that needs to be done inside the wire. That is why they
can come up with journeymen electricians to do the most trivial jobs.
The will have 5 or 6 inmates working on a job that would only rate 2
on a union job and one anywhere else.,
You have the same problem with habitat as you have with working in the
parks. The real trades do not want that competition.

BTW talking about Habitat, that is mostly a joke anyway. My wife built
several habitat houses in Bonita for Centex. The process was, they had
a gang of volunteers come in on the weekend with the TV crews and the
politicians. Then on Monday her regular paid crews would come in, rip
it all out and build the house back right. It was seldom that anything
was really done right by the volunteers. Part of the problem is we had
northern volunteers came down and did things like they used to up
north 20 years ago, not how it is required to be done under our codes
(or even the current code up north). Most builders up north don't
understand how you have to build a 130 MPH wind code rated house
I ran into a lot of that with the volunteers in the park system too.
We were on the 1996 code and these guys stopped learning sometime
around the 68 code.



You're trying to build universal truths out of anecdotes. My father in
law works on Habitat houses, from pouring slabs to putting shingles on
roofs and sodding lawns. His experiences are different from the ones you
are relating.

He must be in much better shape than you, to be able to do those jobs.