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jps

On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:53:42 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:22:05 -0700, jps wrote:

the middle owners are paying little of the tax bill. When people making
$50k pay zero $ and a person like Greg with no mortgage deduction pays about
10%, there is little soak the middle lower earners.

The bottom wrung of the middle class is now $100K+ if you're living in
any of the top 25 cities for housing cost.

So this is Lake Wobegone where everyone is above average?

The average household income is $52,029 according to the Census
Bureau (2008)

How is the "middle" twice the average?

1. There's a lot of folks who don't live in the top 25 cities for
housing cost.

2. Middle class doesn't mean "average." The average in Mexico is dirt
poor. They don't have a middle class.

3a. Middle class is defined by the availability of disposable income.
$50K doesn't leave a lot of room for disposable cash unless your house
and cars are paid for and you have no kids at home.

3b. Having to eat beans and rice everyday and live in a hovel in order
to have disposable income doesn't make you middle class.

jps

On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:13:41 -0400, hk
wrote:

On 4/9/10 2:11 PM, Don White wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 06:14:56 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 23:52:21 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 21:57:13 -0400, wrote:

You seriously underestimate who owns stocks. I am far from rich and I
have always had a pretty good position in equities.
You are a fool if you don't. Has anyone ever explained how many fees
you are paying for that 401k

actually has anyone explained to you about the 50% matching and the
tax benefits? don't know of any investment that gives you 50% on your
money

I understand the matching and I took all they would match but that is
far from universal these days. There are big companies that don't
match at all. They are just doing that in lieu of a real pension
program.
The real problem is you don't know what the taxes on that money are
going to be when you take it out. You can bet your ass a government
that is going broke will be eyeing that big pile of money
The other problem is what do you think will happen to the stock market
when 83 million boomers start cashing in those 401ks?
I bet you will get your wish then and they will start treating capital
gains like ordinary income to slow selling but you don't get that
break on a 401k anyway.
Finally, you are whining constantly about haw badly the money managers
have treated your 401k money in the last few years and I am doing fine
running my own money

unfortunately i work for a living. i dont have the time to work AND
watch what the rich are doing. some of us have a life.

and, yes, i dont know what the tax man will do. but given that the
rich have impoverished the middle class by destroying pensions and
raiding 401k's now, there''s little to complain about; the damage is
done. that's why the rich need to pay more taxes NOW.

The middle class needs to pay more taxes too. We have the lowest tax
rates I have seen in the 48 years I have paid taxes. The idea that the
middle class (any couple making less than $250k) is getting slammed
with taxes is just ludicrous. You are falling for the Limbaugh
diatribe now.

I find it hard to believe your rates are so low while your government is
running such a hugh deficit.

Bush applied for and got an unlimited Chinese Express credit card.

Oh, it has limitations. You must purchase tainted products from a
communist country that compromise the public health and well being.

Peter (Yes, that one)

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:29:10 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 06:42:17 -0500, "Peter (Yes, that one)"
wrote:

When you have families in the $40-50k a year range paying zero taxes
and 2 people making $70-80k paying 10% tax, I don't think anybody is
soaking the little guy.
Like I asked BP, what is this middle class who is getting soaked?
With the new tax changes people making over $250k are probably going
to be paying close to 90% of the taxes.
If you really want to see some taxes, get that "free" public health
care thing going. It ads about 25% to the average Canadian's tax bill,
far more than that for a Frenchman

Please. You are speaking as if federal income tax is the only tax.
It is not. There is FICA, Medicare, and health plans coming directly
out of paychecks. And often state taxes.

Again, I bet Don would swap tax bills with you.

But he may not want to swap his free health care for our form.

Is someone under the impression that we're getting free health care?

I'm still paying and will pay exhorbitant rates. I'm happy that some
who can't afford what I can will have access.

Anyone who's getting taxed will bitch but it depends on what you're
getting for your tax dollar that counts.

We buy bullets and bombs.

Canadians buy health care and a decent education.

All the political talk aside (and a comparison of federal spending will
back you up) he never addressed discretionary spending after all taxes
and common survival expenses as a wealth "class" determinate.
I suppose it is true that in Canada wealth is distributed more evenly,
but I never mentioned Canada.
Guessing from context, that would be the province of the Mr. Don
mentioned.
Mr Gfretwell does not seem to view affordable health care for all as
achievable, and perhaps not even desirable, though every other modern
industrial country has been doing it for many years and at less cost
than the U.S.
I find it disappointing that so many Americans have a "can't do"
attitude towards health care. In my professional life I would never
think for a moment that I could not find a shoe that fit my customer in
fit and style.
That would be considered unprofessional and any shoe clerk who thought
in that manner would be considered a "loser" and be promptly dismissed.
Guess it comes down to can do, can't do mentalities.
I certainly know which attitude is preferred where ever I have worked.
What if General Doolittle had doubts about his mission, and instead of
weighing fuel and distance, just said "Nah, can't do that?"
Or General Eisenhower had told General Marshall, "Say, let's cancel this
D-Day thing. Looks hard to do."
Well, I must say that I shudder at the thought.
Naysayers always find a reason to halt progress, but there are men of
courage who advance the good works of nations and societies.
I am not a cynic, but a realist guided by ideals.
Perhaps I could be called a forward-looking pragmatist.
Just don't call me Ray.

Bill McKee

"hk" wrote in message
m...
On 4/9/10 11:59 AM, Bill McKee wrote:

the middle owners are paying little of the tax bill. When people making
$50k pay zero $ and a person like Greg with no mortgage deduction pays
about
10%, there is little soak the middle lower earners.

I had a feeling English was not your primary language.

--
http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym

And I know common sense has eluded you.

Bill McKee

"jps" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:53:42 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:22:05 -0700, jps wrote:

the middle owners are paying little of the tax bill. When people making
$50k pay zero $ and a person like Greg with no mortgage deduction pays
about
10%, there is little soak the middle lower earners.

The bottom wrung of the middle class is now $100K+ if you're living in
any of the top 25 cities for housing cost.

So this is Lake Wobegone where everyone is above average?

The average household income is $52,029 according to the Census
Bureau (2008)

How is the "middle" twice the average?

1. There's a lot of folks who don't live in the top 25 cities for
housing cost.

2. Middle class doesn't mean "average." The average in Mexico is dirt
poor. They don't have a middle class.

3a. Middle class is defined by the availability of disposable income.
$50K doesn't leave a lot of room for disposable cash unless your house
and cars are paid for and you have no kids at home.

3b. Having to eat beans and rice everyday and live in a hovel in order
to have disposable income doesn't make you middle class.

50k even in Seattle is middle class.

Bill McKee

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Bill McKee wrote:
wrote in message
...

On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:08:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 01:31:41 -0700, wrote:

Every time you drive up to the pump, you pay more in federal tax
for a
single gallon of gasoline (18.4 cents) than ExxonMobil paid in
U.S.
income taxes in 2009. That's in spite of the fact that the world's
second largest company had a gross operating profit of nearly $53

Corporations don't pay taxes, their customers do..
If they paid any additional taxes, it would simply show up in the
price of gas, with the profit tacked on.
I understand some people do want to increase taxes on gasoline and
this is a way to do it but understand that is what you would be
doing.

Flawed logic. Exxonmobil is simply a conduit for sales taxes paid
by
you and me. Doesn't make a whit of difference to ExxonMobil, whose
profit was the largest in history last year, while paying no taxes.

You think that's fair? Not me.

I do the same for the city, state and government when selling retail
but that doesn't make my company a productive tax producer, just a
conduit.

Where I produce for the state is in state revenue taxes and federal
income taxes.

Profitable corporations do not pay taxes. They pay a business
expense. And
expenses are calculated in to the price the consumer pays.

Do you have an example of that? Pick a publicly traded company and
look at their balance sheet and financial statement. Profits = taxes.
If they were an expense they would reduce the profits.

Profits are what you have after expenses. So the tax expense is built
in to the cost structure. XOM may not pay any US income tax, but I pay
on my dividends I receive from them. Also 46% of the workers in this
country do not pay income tax. And lots of those get back extra from
the government. Is one thing to not pay taxes, but to get back money is
criminal. Criminal for government. A family of 4 making $50k will not
pay any income tax. But they get all the benefits of society. They
get an 11k deduction that everyone gets, which leaves them an about $2k
tax bill. They they get a $K credit for each kid. the $2k tax bill is
now zero. That is middle class America making $50k.

As usual, you've misrepresented what that means:

"About 47 percent will pay no federal income taxes at all for 2009.
Either their incomes were too low, or they qualified for enough credits,
deductions and exemptions to eliminate their liability."

Your philosophy: Soak the middle/lower earners, let the rich get richer.

--
Nom=de=Plume

the middle owners are paying little of the tax bill. When people making
$50k pay zero $ and a person like Greg with no mortgage deduction pays
about 10%, there is little soak the middle lower earners.

Good grief... you're being pretty simple-minded. Read the thread section
where gfretwell and I are actually having a rational discussion.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Come out of my ignoring you to say you are still a twit! You have never had
a rational discussion.

jps

On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 15:49:40 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:31:31 -0700, jps wrote:

3a. Middle class is defined by the availability of disposable income.
$50K doesn't leave a lot of room for disposable cash unless your house
and cars are paid for and you have no kids at home.

You are probably talking about 15% of the country.
How is that the middle of anything?

The point is, it used to be lots more than 15% or whatever it is.

Like Mexico, it's shrinking as money floats to the top.

jps

On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:22:39 -0700, "Bill McKee"
wrote:

"jps" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:53:42 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:22:05 -0700, jps wrote:

the middle owners are paying little of the tax bill. When people making
$50k pay zero $ and a person like Greg with no mortgage deduction pays
about
10%, there is little soak the middle lower earners.

The bottom wrung of the middle class is now $100K+ if you're living in
any of the top 25 cities for housing cost.

So this is Lake Wobegone where everyone is above average?

The average household income is $52,029 according to the Census
Bureau (2008)

How is the "middle" twice the average?

1. There's a lot of folks who don't live in the top 25 cities for
housing cost.

2. Middle class doesn't mean "average." The average in Mexico is dirt
poor. They don't have a middle class.

3a. Middle class is defined by the availability of disposable income.
$50K doesn't leave a lot of room for disposable cash unless your house
and cars are paid for and you have no kids at home.

3b. Having to eat beans and rice everyday and live in a hovel in order
to have disposable income doesn't make you middle class.

50k even in Seattle is middle class.

Not a bloody chance. Upon what do you base your opinion?

Your definition of middle class is different than mine and probably
the dictionary too.

"The socioeconomic class between the working class and the upper
class, usually including professionals, highly skilled laborers, and
lower and middle management."

You can't survive in a decent home on a single $50K income here, which
is approximately what's described above.

Working class is $50K/household. 20K is well into poverty.

hk

On 4/9/10 4:41 PM, jps wrote:
On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:22:39 -0700, "Bill McKee"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:53:42 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:22:05 -0700, wrote:

the middle owners are paying little of the tax bill. When people making
$50k pay zero $ and a person like Greg with no mortgage deduction pays
about
10%, there is little soak the middle lower earners.

The bottom wrung of the middle class is now $100K+ if you're living in
any of the top 25 cities for housing cost.

So this is Lake Wobegone where everyone is above average?

The average household income is $52,029 according to the Census
Bureau (2008)

How is the "middle" twice the average?

1. There's a lot of folks who don't live in the top 25 cities for
housing cost.

2. Middle class doesn't mean "average." The average in Mexico is dirt
poor. They don't have a middle class.

3a. Middle class is defined by the availability of disposable income.
$50K doesn't leave a lot of room for disposable cash unless your house
and cars are paid for and you have no kids at home.

3b. Having to eat beans and rice everyday and live in a hovel in order
to have disposable income doesn't make you middle class.

50k even in Seattle is middle class.

Not a bloody chance. Upon what do you base your opinion?

Your definition of middle class is different than mine and probably
the dictionary too.

"The socioeconomic class between the working class and the upper
class, usually including professionals, highly skilled laborers, and
lower and middle management."

You can't survive in a decent home on a single $50K income here, which
is approximately what's described above.

Working class is $50K/household. 20K is well into poverty.

A construction worker in the skilled trades does a little better than
that in Seattle, and, typically, their spouses work, too, in order to
decently house, feed, educate, clothe themselves and their kids.

--
http://tinyurl.com/ykxp2ym

bpuharic

On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:20:12 -0400, wrote:

The middle class needs to pay more taxes too. We have the lowest tax
rates I have seen in the 48 years I have paid taxes. The idea that the
middle class (any couple making less than $250k) is getting slammed
with taxes is just ludicrous. You are falling for the Limbaugh
diatribe now.

hardly.

the middle class hasn't had a pay increase in 10 years. the wealthiest
1% have seen their incomes triple in the same time.

taxes haven't gone down. nor has cost of living.

the middle class needs a tax reduction. the rich got theirs.

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