On 18/04/2010 9:25 AM, Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
...


and you have the density of a black hole. i've been saving in my 401K
since congress created it 30 years ago.




You have not been "saving" in your 401K. You've been placing bets in your
401K.
You are betting that your investment will grow based on the performance,
success and work of others.

A 401K plan invested and managed for you or by you in the stock market *can*
produce much higher returns than other investments or savings plans. That,
plus the matching funds that some employers make have made them attractive.

But ... it's still not a guarantied savings plan. There are risks
associated with it. Correct me if I am wrong.

In my world, I haven't and don't invest any more money in the stock market
than that I am willing to lose. I certainly didn't plan my retirement based
on it.

Old fashioned, but it works for me. I am arrogant enough to rely mostly on
my own performance.

Eisboch
I would not call that arrogance, just good old fashioned self worth,
investing in yourself. Good attitude.



--
Time to ask, is our government serving us or are we serving the government?

On 18/04/2010 9:40 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 08:19:19 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 01:10:22 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:46:39 -0400, wrote:


americans are the hardest working people in the western world. we work
200 hours more than europeans and japanese.



Yet the Europeans save about 3 times as much as Americans
You said you were working 60 hour weeks. That is 175% of your base
salary and you didn't think you should be saving some of that?

i'm salaried. i dont overtime

and you have the density of a black hole. i've been saving in my 401K
since congress created it 30 years ago.

it's now worth what it was 10 years ago. i should have spent it on
whores and booze like john paulson did when he looted goldman sachs
for a billion

yet in your mind he's a hero because he's rich, and i'm an idiot
because i'm a hard working middle class guy

shows what moral values the right has

You probably make more money than I ever did. You just spend a higher
percentage of it.
A 401k is not savings, it is, at best, a substitute pension plan, at
worst a Ponzi scheme. I predict that when the boomers start drawing
down their 401ks the market will crash again. (and I seem to be pretty
good at predicting market crashes, certainly better than your 401k
manager)

401K/IRA are not ponzi. Perhaps what you direct them to invest in is.
Move your vested part of a 401K to a self directed IRA, much more
flexable than most of the company sponsored junk. But you do need to
learn to manage it yourself.

But one way or another, you better save for retirement or be prepared to
be a 65 year old bum. You can't live on social security alone.

--
Time to ask, is our government serving us or are we serving the government?

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...

On 18/04/2010 10:06 AM, Eisboch wrote:

The only "new" stock I bought recently was Ford and did so when they were
at
about $1.46 a share and GM and Chrysler were just about goners. (well,
actually, they *were* goners).

I was impressed by the determination of Ford to forego government bailout
money and attempt to make it on their own. So far they have.




Owned Ford too, didn't do as well as you. Bought in at $2.25 and out at
$6.90 but a good ride and never got burned taking a profit. Watch Ford
carefully, it could go to $20 but there is a hype factor in it at the
moment. To manage debt, they diluted the shares and under current
valuation on a equity base, Ford is in definitive high end of valuation
for at least a decade, the question is are they over valued or can they
continue?


I bought as much as I dared risk right after they announced they would not
seek a bailout.
Sold half at about the same as you ($6.60) and half again at ($11.60). I
am well ahead of the game now, so the remainder will stay for the longer
haul, unless something blows up like a Pinto.

Eisboch

On 18/04/2010 9:49 AM, hk wrote:
On 4/18/10 11:40 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 08:19:19 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 01:10:22 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:46:39 -0400, wrote:


americans are the hardest working people in the western world. we work
200 hours more than europeans and japanese.



Yet the Europeans save about 3 times as much as Americans
You said you were working 60 hour weeks. That is 175% of your base
salary and you didn't think you should be saving some of that?

i'm salaried. i dont overtime

and you have the density of a black hole. i've been saving in my 401K
since congress created it 30 years ago.

it's now worth what it was 10 years ago. i should have spent it on
whores and booze like john paulson did when he looted goldman sachs
for a billion

yet in your mind he's a hero because he's rich, and i'm an idiot
because i'm a hard working middle class guy

shows what moral values the right has

You probably make more money than I ever did. You just spend a higher
percentage of it.
A 401k is not savings, it is, at best, a substitute pension plan, at
worst a Ponzi scheme. I predict that when the boomers start drawing
down their 401ks the market will crash again. (and I seem to be pretty
good at predicting market crashes, certainly better than your 401k
manager)


It's best to have available a variety of pensions and pension saving
devices.

Maybe. But always good to keep any eye on them and take them with you.

In my case, I left NorTel in 1995. I could smell the company changing
and I didn't like what I saw. I was underpaid and looked at
alternatives and quit. When I quit, I had to decide to leave the
pension moneys in the plan, or roll them over into my own account. I
chose the later. Today I am not close to retirement yet the yeild is
more than they predicted it would be when I did retire. Bonus, if I die
my wife and estate get 100% of the value. And I didn't eat the NorTel
pension write downs and dilutions.

I did it again in 2008. Actually lightly suggested I get laid off.
Thinking this is a good time to roll over the pensions. Was in cash
when the market crunched. And they too have since devlaued their
payouts while I was buying stock on the cheap.

There are a long list of companies that messed up pensions, Enron,
NorTel, GM, Chrysler, Delco...

I only count on what is in my name in my account. And will quit at the
appropriate times to roll it over into my control. That is, many
employers have plans that I would at some point view as a liability to
staying too long. You can't determine the benefits in 10, 20 or 30
years, they screw with it too much.

--
Time to ask, is our government serving us or are we serving the government?

On 18/04/2010 10:07 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 11:49:25 -0400,
wrote:

It's best to have available a variety of pensions and pension saving
devices.

Exactly, if you are not diversified, you are vulnerable to all sorts
of things.

Diversification is always good. But in the case of a company pension
plan, it is out of your control. See Enron, they really got stiffed.
So did NorTel and a long list of others.

Get it in you account, in your name so if they go bust, you are not
bust. In my IRA I control diversification and don't end up like GMers
pension that had Carlyle's biggest investment as GM.

--
Time to ask, is our government serving us or are we serving the government?

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 11:25:03 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


"bpuharic" wrote in message
.. .


and you have the density of a black hole. i've been saving in my 401K
since congress created it 30 years ago.




You have not been "saving" in your 401K. You've been placing bets in your
401K.

more rightwing bull****. i think you guys violate the 1st law of
thermo

no. i've been saving. i have a regular deduction from my pay

and it's the ONLY retirement option the right wing has left the middle
class. YOU guys even wanted to do to social security what you did to
401lk's

remember bush's hatred of social security and his plan to 'privatize'
it?

oh. you forgot that. no wonder. right wing ideology is to investing
what celibate priests are to childcare

You are betting that your investment will grow based on the performance,
success and work of others.

more right wing bull****. YOU guys preached the infallibity of the
free market YOU guys preached 401k's. YOU guys preached that pensions
were useless because the rich needed that money.


But ... it's still not a guarantied savings plan. There are risks
associated with it. Correct me if I am wrong.

you're wrong. you're wrong because the right wing left the middle
class with NO retirement apart from 401k's. you're wrong because the
right planned to do to social security what they did to 401k's
w

In my world, I haven't and don't invest any more money in the stock market
than that I am willing to lose. I certainly didn't plan my retirement based
on it.

Old fashioned, but it works for me. I am arrogant enough to rely mostly on
my own performance.

you're arrogant enough to hate the middle class that built this
country and to tell us how wall street needs our support

you guys dont know **** about ****

On 4/18/10 1:07 PM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 18/04/2010 9:49 AM, hk wrote:

It's best to have available a variety of pensions and pension saving
devices.

Maybe. But always good to keep any eye on them and take them with you.


There are a long list of companies that messed up pensions, Enron,
NorTel, GM, Chrysler, Delco...


That's why I don't worry too much about my union pension. It's a fixed
benefit pension, and to date, there never has been a period when there
have been unfunded liabilities. Further, we through our elected officers
control the fund, not the employers, and our fund officers select our
qpams. The employers do have "represenation" on the fund board, but they
are in the minority.

The fund's contributions are comprised entirely of the money the members
have put into it, and it is portable, so long as the member is working
for a signatory contractor. Now, there have been occasions when a
contractor has failed to forward the funds for the previous week's
contributions, but he is quickly convinced *that* is not a good idea.

This method of operations is fairly typical for building trades unions.
Our predecessors learned early on not to trust management when it is
holding your money.





--
The Tea Party's teabaggers are just the Republican base by another name.

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 12:06:02 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 11:27:42 -0400, hk
wrote:



Agreed, and since wall street was and is operated by crooks whose
primary goal is to enrich themselves by whatever means necessary,
investing in wall street offerings is both risky and stupid.

I don't think you can buck the rich people but you can hitch a ride
with them. The only trick is to pay attention

ROFLMAO!!! goldman sach defrauded its investors...PROFESSIONALS...but
the right wing says it's all the fault of the middle class!


.. Stocks are not for "set
it and forget it" investing. You have to understand the power of
market orders and stop loss orders. Beyond that you only have to watch
the news. The market is 30% fundamentals and 70% emotion. A good or
bad news blitz will swing a stock a lot more than a change in th

so much for 'rational' market theory of the right wing chicago school.
looks like he just bought into the 'behavioral economics' of liberal
nobel prize winner paul krugman...who's been telling us what thieves
wall street is.

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 12:06:19 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:




Sorry but I can't agree totally to that. There certainly have been some
companies managed by greed.

gee. which ones weren't?

notice how the right tells us the middle class DESERVES to get ****ed
because they're not rich BUT that that wall street is composed of
upstanding citizens

****, even alan greenspan doesn't believe THAT bull**** anymore. but
the right does!

There have been some run by outright crooks.
But I also believe that there are many that are run honestly,within the law
that offer good produces, services and investment opportunities.

you're gonna make me cry. i feel like i'm watching 'terms of
endearment'.


With one exception, the few stocks I hold are in companies that I know
something about, am familiar with their products and track records and, in
some cases, know some of the senior management.

blah blah blah. it's all about you. the 100,000,000 hard working
middle class workers who got raped, the professionals who got
duped...well they're all crooks, according to the right wing because
paul johnson made a billion dollars by defrauding the market like a
good american should

christ this is pathetic.

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 11:50:39 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 08:22:31 -0400, bpuharic wrote:


correct. but the CDOs...beyond the 'synthetic' ones...went from 1B in
'96 to 60 TRILLION in 2006.

so tell me how you cover that?

There is no way to cover that. The money never existed
The government is trying to fix it by just printing more money.

bull****. it was wall street's doings and the right just shrugs its
shoulders and says the middle class should pay.



if the guys who were DOING this **** for a living didnt see it, how
was middle class america supposed to?

They weren't "doing it" if they didn't see this one coming.

ROFLMAO!! if they SAW it coming by committing fraud...what happened to
the professional investors, the rating services, etc, who DIDNT see it
coming??

Lots of people saw the crash in housing and knew the market would
follow that down.

few saw the level of greed and corruption on wall street

you still dont.


that's the problem with the right. they never blame criminals...IF the
crooks are rich

I would blame myself for not locking the door and having security
measures in place.

again he blames the middle class.

the middle class has to build the country, raise its children, provide
for the defense AND manage wall street without a voice about how wall
street is managed...because that would interfere with the 'free
market'.

this is like reading a children's novel written by a malevolent demon