On Apr 21, 3:28*pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Brian Welcott" wrote in message

...





"nom=de=plume" wrote in
:

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
.
..
Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). *On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. *About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the
time you can sail directly toward your destination. *Around here,
roughly 30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or
tropical storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. *This is why cruising
sailboats need adequate engines.

Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I
think. By adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in
most conditions, but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're
likely sailing right? I can see needing something adequate in the bay
or on the coast. The link I found said the boat had a 50hp, which
seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps fuel capacity is also an
important issue...

Much of this has to do with your "sailing" personality.
Despite what the OP has said, there are plenty of cruising sailors who
seldom use an engine.
Even a knot of wind will move a boat, and zephyrs of 2-5 knots are often
at work even on flat seas.
Dead calm conditions are not common for cruisers.

Hey, I saw that movie!





The impatient will turn on the engine, others will wait for the wind to
return.
Against the wind tacking is part of sailing, so all these points of
compass wind direction percentages are pretty meaningless.
Unless you are a stinkpotter at heart.
Note how this fellow has managed to work it out that in essence you can
sail only 10-13% of the time.
Yet I know sailors who commonly sail off anchor in almost calm
conditions, and only rarely motor off.
With them, it is motoring that might comprise 10% of their movement.
Sails are not meant to get you from one place to another quickly.
If your goal is to move from port to port expeditiously, you will usually
find yourself motoring.
If you are a "sail" sailor at heart, you will nearly always sail, and the
wind will set your schedule. *Impatience is not an option, nor desired.
This is not to say an engine isn't useful, or that one should not use an
engine, or even that mostly motoring a sailboat isn't a valid option.
And an engine greatly enhances safety in many circumstances.
What I am suggesting is that you should well know your inclinations
before selecting your boat.
You may be a stinkpotter at heart, and find a trawler more suitable.
There are also motor-sailors available if you want to hedge your bet.

Regards, Brian

I never liked engines. Didn't have one certainly when I had the Hobie. We
did beach starts all the time... mostly in fact.

--
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- Show quoted text -

Then again, isn't launching a Hobie a bit diffrent than a 40 ft.
cutter?

Im not a blow boater, but I'd think that on that size of a craft I'd
want at least a 65 hp diesel. And a good one too!

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:31:01 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Heh, what makes you think that trawlers are cheap? Have you bought
800 gallons of diesel recently in a foreign country?


I can't imagine it.. you've gotta be made of money.

Not really, just comfortable and frugal with the unnecessary.

Guys I used to work with would joke around and say things like:
"Wayne, you must really be wealthy having all these boats".

I'd always reply that they didn't understand how it works, that I
might really be wealthy if I didn't have any boats at all.

Since you are thinking about buying a boat, the moral of the story is
to be careful what you ask for.


Isn't that true with just about everything. I went through this on my way to
my business. Got two concurrent undergrad degrees, then got two concurrent
grad degrees. Got my "dream" job at a big firm, then did consulting with a
partner for companies for even more bucks. Then, realized I was totally
wasting my time working for other people. I had no reason to believe my
hobbie would turn into a profitable business, which is actually pretty fun.
And, I still get to help the individual inventor from time to time. At this
point, we're talking about chucking it all for 2-3 years, and seeing how it
goes, with no agenda other than exploring.

Perhaps you're wealthy because you have boats (I read that right... boats?).

--
Nom=de=Plume

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:32:15 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

It is also a fact that the average cruising boat is not set up for
efficient light wind sailing. That requires a lot of attention to
minimizing weight, top notch sails in flawless condition, an
obsession with keeping the bottom/keel/rudder smooth and clean, etc.


You mean like a spinnaker? I think there's another... not a gennaker...
can't think of it. Sort of between the two.

Sailboats that are really serious about performance don't carry just
one spinnaker, more like 3, 4 or 5, one for every possible wind
strength and apparent wind angle. Nothing improves a boats light wind
speed like a spinnaker but the wind has to be from the right
direction, and it takes crew with expertise to set, douse and trim
them. An experienced crew on a racing sailboat, as conditions change,
can set a new spinnaker inside the old one, douse the original, and
continue on with no loss in speed during the maneuver.


I suppose... not interested in racing, but I get your point.

--
Nom=de=Plume

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:28:13 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

I never liked engines.

A lot of sailboat owners feel that way, and it is one of the reasons
that so many sailboats have engine problems. Every boat needs someone
who can empathize with an engine and keep it happy.


Yeah, I think that would mostly not be me. But, point taken. Perhaps a
diesel maintenance class would be worth it.

--
Nom=de=Plume

"Tim" wrote in message
...
On Apr 21, 3:28 pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Brian Welcott" wrote in message

...





"nom=de=plume" wrote in
:

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
.
..
Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the
time you can sail directly toward your destination. Around here,
roughly 30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or
tropical storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. This is why cruising
sailboats need adequate engines.

Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I
think. By adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in
most conditions, but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're
likely sailing right? I can see needing something adequate in the bay
or on the coast. The link I found said the boat had a 50hp, which
seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps fuel capacity is also an
important issue...

Much of this has to do with your "sailing" personality.
Despite what the OP has said, there are plenty of cruising sailors who
seldom use an engine.
Even a knot of wind will move a boat, and zephyrs of 2-5 knots are often
at work even on flat seas.
Dead calm conditions are not common for cruisers.

Hey, I saw that movie!





The impatient will turn on the engine, others will wait for the wind to
return.
Against the wind tacking is part of sailing, so all these points of
compass wind direction percentages are pretty meaningless.
Unless you are a stinkpotter at heart.
Note how this fellow has managed to work it out that in essence you can
sail only 10-13% of the time.
Yet I know sailors who commonly sail off anchor in almost calm
conditions, and only rarely motor off.
With them, it is motoring that might comprise 10% of their movement.
Sails are not meant to get you from one place to another quickly.
If your goal is to move from port to port expeditiously, you will
usually
find yourself motoring.
If you are a "sail" sailor at heart, you will nearly always sail, and
the
wind will set your schedule. Impatience is not an option, nor desired.
This is not to say an engine isn't useful, or that one should not use an
engine, or even that mostly motoring a sailboat isn't a valid option.
And an engine greatly enhances safety in many circumstances.
What I am suggesting is that you should well know your inclinations
before selecting your boat.
You may be a stinkpotter at heart, and find a trawler more suitable.
There are also motor-sailors available if you want to hedge your bet.

Regards, Brian

I never liked engines. Didn't have one certainly when I had the Hobie. We
did beach starts all the time... mostly in fact.

--
Nom=de=Plume- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Then again, isn't launching a Hobie a bit diffrent than a 40 ft.
cutter?

Sheesh... I *hope* so! That boat took two of us and sometimes some help.

Im not a blow boater, but I'd think that on that size of a craft I'd
want at least a 65 hp diesel. And a good one too!

I've never read of anything over a 50hp, but I don't really know.

--
Nom=de=Plume

nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...

Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the time
you can sail directly toward your destination. Around here, roughly
30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or tropical
storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the time you
can sail toward your destination. This is why cruising sailboats need
adequate engines.


Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I think. By
adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in most conditions,
but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're likely sailing right? I can
see needing something adequate in the bay or on the coast. The link I found
said the boat had a 50hp, which seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps
fuel capacity is also an important issue...


Perhaps?

On Apr 21, 5:45*pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Tim" wrote in message

...
On Apr 21, 3:28 pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:



"Brian Welcott" wrote in message

.. .

"nom=de=plume" wrote in
:

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
.
..
Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the
time you can sail directly toward your destination. Around here,
roughly 30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or
tropical storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. This is why cruising
sailboats need adequate engines.

Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I
think. By adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in
most conditions, but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're
likely sailing right? I can see needing something adequate in the bay
or on the coast. The link I found said the boat had a 50hp, which
seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps fuel capacity is also an
important issue...

Much of this has to do with your "sailing" personality.
Despite what the OP has said, there are plenty of cruising sailors who
seldom use an engine.
Even a knot of wind will move a boat, and zephyrs of 2-5 knots are often
at work even on flat seas.
Dead calm conditions are not common for cruisers.

Hey, I saw that movie!

The impatient will turn on the engine, others will wait for the wind to
return.
Against the wind tacking is part of sailing, so all these points of
compass wind direction percentages are pretty meaningless.
Unless you are a stinkpotter at heart.
Note how this fellow has managed to work it out that in essence you can
sail only 10-13% of the time.
Yet I know sailors who commonly sail off anchor in almost calm
conditions, and only rarely motor off.
With them, it is motoring that might comprise 10% of their movement.
Sails are not meant to get you from one place to another quickly.
If your goal is to move from port to port expeditiously, you will
usually
find yourself motoring.
If you are a "sail" sailor at heart, you will nearly always sail, and
the
wind will set your schedule. Impatience is not an option, nor desired..
This is not to say an engine isn't useful, or that one should not use an
engine, or even that mostly motoring a sailboat isn't a valid option.
And an engine greatly enhances safety in many circumstances.
What I am suggesting is that you should well know your inclinations
before selecting your boat.
You may be a stinkpotter at heart, and find a trawler more suitable.
There are also motor-sailors available if you want to hedge your bet.

Regards, Brian

I never liked engines. Didn't have one certainly when I had the Hobie. We
did beach starts all the time... mostly in fact.

--
Nom=de=Plume- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Then again, isn't launching a *Hobie a bit diffrent than a 40 ft.
cutter?

Sheesh... I *hope* so! That boat took two of us and sometimes some help.

Im not a blow boater, but I'd think that on that size of a craft I'd
want at least a 65 hp diesel. And a good one too!

I've never read of anything over a 50hp, but I don't really know.

--
Nom=de=Plume

There's a lot of sail boats that have 125 hp on up. The Ford Lehman
diesels are or at least were a popular marine engine for large sailers
as well as trawlers.

I know this is a 72 ft'r but it has twin Leymans at 120 hp each.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:09:16 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

There's a lot of sail boats that have 125 hp on up. The Ford Lehman
diesels are or at least were a popular marine engine for large sailers
as well as trawlers.

I know this is a 72 ft'r but it has twin Leymans at 120 hp each.

It turns out that the horsepower required for a boat to reach so
called hull speed is mostly a function of weight, and it is a
surprisingly small number for boats less than 100 tons or so.
Then you have to add in a fudge factor however for adverse conditions,
plus parasitic losses for things like alternators, refrigeration
compressors, hydraulic pumps, etc. There are also losses in the
transmission and cutlass bearings. A 70,000 pound trawler in theory
needs less than 90 hp to reach hull speed but to have reasonable
margins of safety you need 3 or 4 times that much.

On Apr 21, 7:17*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:09:16 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

There's a lot of sail boats that have 125 hp on up. The Ford Lehman
diesels are or at least were a popular marine engine for large sailers
as well as trawlers.

I know this is a 72 ft'r but it has twin Leymans at 120 hp each.

It turns out that the horsepower required for a boat to reach so
called hull speed is mostly a function of weight, and it is a
surprisingly small number for boats less than 100 tons or so.
Then you have to add in a fudge factor however for adverse conditions,
plus parasitic losses for things like alternators, refrigeration
compressors, hydraulic pumps, etc. * There are also losses in the
transmission and cutlass bearings. * A 70,000 pound trawler in theory
needs less than 90 hp to reach hull speed *but to have reasonable
margins of safety you need 3 or 4 times that much.

My 28' S2 weighs 7700 lbs. If the required power is directly
proportional to weight then my 13 hp diesel is enough.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:07:54 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

My 28' S2 weighs 7700 lbs. If the required power is directly
proportional to weight then my 13 hp diesel is enough.

It's certainly enough most of the time. We had a Westerly 28 many
years ago that I repowered with a 13 hp Volvo diesel. It was about
the same weight as yours and the engine was fine for all normal
conditions. We never got hit with any really ugly weather with that
engine however.

Our next boat was a Cal-34 that weighed about 10,000 lbs. It had a 30
hp Atomic 4 gas engine that was always more than adequate. I was once
hit with a 60 kt white squall with that boat on open ocean north of
Cape Cod. There was plenty of advance warning and we rode it out with
a triple reefed main, slowly motoring about 40 or 50 degrees off the
wind. There were no problems with control or power in those
conditions but it was over in less than 30 minutes. The biggest issue
was visibility. You really need something like ski goggles or a pilot
house when the wind is blowing like that.