On 4/28/10 9:31 AM, Tim wrote:
On Apr 27, 9:43 pm, wrote:
I read the wiki on diesels, and I think I read that if a diesel is running,
then it doesn't need a spark (e.g., battery energy) to keep running. If
that's the case, then it seems like you should be able to start a diesel by
hand, assuming you have the muscle or leverage. So, in the former case, even
if your battery died - perhaps got wet and shorted out - then the engine
would keep running. In the latter situation if the battery was already dead,
you might be able to crank it to start it.

--
Nom=de=Plume

One thing you need to be sure of is that there's a provision that you
can do so. Most small diesels that I'm familiar with are electric
start only. But i'm not that familiar with all the diesels in a marine
aplication, though.


In the good old days, outboard motors up to about 50 hp had pull-start
capabilities, either because of a pull-cord built into the motor, or a
place to use your own pull-cord under the motor's hood. The 50 hp motors
had a compression release mechanism.

I've not seen a diesel with a pull-cord feature. Doesn't mean they don't
exist. Even a small diesel on a sailboat would be hard to start by hand,
both because of the compression and because there might not be enough
room where the engine is installed to get enough leverage with whatever
hand device you are trying to use to start it to actually make the hand
device work.

Seems to me if one is worried about the ability of a battery to crank
the electric starter motor on a diesel, the solution (in addition to
proper battery maintenance) is to have more than one battery available
to the starter.

Or...how about a compressed air starter system... :)


--
The Tea Party's teabaggers are just the Republican base by another name.

nom=de=plume wrote:


Ok, I'm no diesel mechanic...


And neither are those who give you half-assed answers.
Yanmar still sells a 10 horse with hand cranking.
Bigger engines usually aren't hand cranked because it's just too hard to
do, but you can get this
http://www.springstarter.com/application_guide.asp
Starts bigger diesels than you'll normally have in a boat.
If it has a compression release, it can normally be spun up to start
without a battery.
But if it needs juice for any controls, you'll need the juice.
Just have to know what you're getting.
They call that specificity. It usually works.

Jim - Just trying to bring some sense into a useless exchange of non-ideas.

On Apr 28, 9:13*am, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 23:26:24 -0700, "nom=de=plume"





wrote:
"jps" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 19:43:02 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

I read the wiki on diesels, and I think I read that if a diesel is
running,
then it doesn't need a spark (e.g., battery energy) to keep running. If
that's the case, then it seems like you should be able to start a diesel
by
hand, assuming you have the muscle or leverage. So, in the former case,
even
if your battery died - perhaps got wet and shorted out - then the engine
would keep running. In the latter situation if the battery was already
dead,
you might be able to crank it to start it.

It's not that simple. *Motors have brains now and that brain often
controls both fuel, spark and timing -- and needs to be powered.

If your diesel was a throwback of many decades, you'd be right.

Interesting. No spark though on the diesel required or has that changed as
well? So, it wouldn't be possible to hand start it, but would it keep
running? Seems like it would be capable of generating it's own electricity,
much like a car engine charges the battery via the alternator. How many
amps/volts would be needed to retain its ability to control fuel, timing,
etc? Seems like it wouldn't require the same amperage that a starting
battery is capable of, so wouldn't a small, dedicated "engine function"
battery suffice?

Ok, I'm no diesel mechanic...

Even a car with an alternator needs some little bit of battery power
to get going. The alternator will not put out until you excite the
field, something I found out when I built thishttp://gfretwell.com/electrical/redneck_power.jpg
Hence the little Gel Cell.

Now back in the olden days when motor cycles had generators they did
build choppers with no battery, usually based on Triumphs, that only
had a tomato paste can sized capacitor stuffed in there somewhere to
hold enough power to get it going.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But the usually did that on the Brit bikes because the Lucas charging
system was too unreliable. The old saying about Joseph Lucas LTD was
true. They didn't call him the 'Prince of Darkness' for nothing.

I read the wiki on diesels, and I think I read that if a diesel is
running, then it doesn't need a spark (e.g., battery energy) to keep
running. If that's the case, then it seems like you should be able to
start a diesel by hand, assuming you have the muscle or leverage. So, in
the former case, even if your battery died - perhaps got wet and shorted
out - then the engine would keep running. In the latter situation if the
battery was already dead, you might be able to crank it to start it.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Depends on the diesel. When I was a commercial diver, we had Lister single
piston diesel engines for dive air compressors. We hand cranked them, and
there was not one wire on them. Boy, the new three cylinder Perkins with
the air start were a sweet change! But I have started that Perkins by hand
more than twice. Just get up enough rpm before you throw the lever.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for book

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.

On Apr 28, 9:38*am, hk wrote:
On 4/28/10 9:31 AM, Tim wrote:





On Apr 27, 9:43 pm, *wrote:
I read the wiki on diesels, and I think I read that if a diesel is running,
then it doesn't need a spark (e.g., battery energy) to keep running. If
that's the case, then it seems like you should be able to start a diesel by
hand, assuming you have the muscle or leverage. So, in the former case, even
if your battery died - perhaps got wet and shorted out - then the engine
would keep running. In the latter situation if the battery was already dead,
you might be able to crank it to start it.

--
Nom=de=Plume

One thing you need to be sure of is that there's a provision that you
can do so. Most small diesels that I'm familiar with are electric
start only. But i'm not that familiar with all the diesels in a marine
aplication, though.

In the good old days, outboard motors up to about 50 hp had pull-start
capabilities, either because of a pull-cord built into the motor, or a
place to use your own pull-cord under the motor's hood. The 50 hp motors
had a compression release mechanism.

I've not seen a diesel with a pull-cord feature. Doesn't mean they don't
exist. Even a small diesel on a sailboat would be hard to start by hand,
both because of the compression and because there might not be enough
room where the engine is installed to get enough leverage with whatever
hand device you are trying to use to start it to actually make the hand
device work.

Seems to me if one is worried about the ability of a battery to crank
the electric starter motor on a diesel, the solution (in addition to
proper battery maintenance) is to have more than one battery available
to the starter.

Or...how about a compressed air starter system... *:)

--
The Tea Party's teabaggers are just the Republican base by another name.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think you better talk to your mechanical engineering breathren
alittle. First "up to 50 hp." had a provision for a rope start is
horse****. My 1974 135hp Evinrude had notches in the flywheel just for
that purpose. And it actually wasn't too bad to start that way. If it
were clapped out and tired you'd play hell, but if it would start in a
couple of pulls, it's okay. I did it just to see if I could. There's
many, many, many compressed air starters out there in all sorts of
applications including semis.

"Loogypicker" wrote in message
...
On Apr 28, 1:19 am, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Bill McKee" wrote in message

m...







"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
I read the wiki on diesels, and I think I read that if a diesel is
running, then it doesn't need a spark (e.g., battery energy) to keep
running. If that's the case, then it seems like you should be able to
start a diesel by hand, assuming you have the muscle or leverage. So, in
the former case, even if your battery died - perhaps got wet and shorted
out - then the engine would keep running. In the latter situation if the
battery was already dead, you might be able to crank it to start it.

--
Nom=de=Plume

In the old days you could do just that. Any modern diesel has electronic
controls.

I guess you're unable to understand what I wrote. Did I mention recently
that you're an idiot?

--
Nom=de=Plume- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bill answered your post correctly. Why the hatred?


No hatred, and no he didn't answer the questions I asked.

--
Nom=de=Plume

"Jim" wrote in message
...
nom=de=plume wrote:


Ok, I'm no diesel mechanic...


And neither are those who give you half-assed answers.
Yanmar still sells a 10 horse with hand cranking.
Bigger engines usually aren't hand cranked because it's just too hard to
do, but you can get this
http://www.springstarter.com/application_guide.asp
Starts bigger diesels than you'll normally have in a boat.
If it has a compression release, it can normally be spun up to start
without a battery.
But if it needs juice for any controls, you'll need the juice.
Just have to know what you're getting.
They call that specificity. It usually works.

Jim - Just trying to bring some sense into a useless exchange of
non-ideas.




Interesting... thanks for the link!

--
Nom=de=Plume

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
On Apr 27, 10:43 pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
I read the wiki on diesels, and I think I read that if a diesel is
running,
then it doesn't need a spark (e.g., battery energy) to keep running. If
that's the case, then it seems like you should be able to start a diesel
by
hand, assuming you have the muscle or leverage. So, in the former case,
even
if your battery died - perhaps got wet and shorted out - then the engine
would keep running. In the latter situation if the battery was already
dead,
you might be able to crank it to start it.

--
Nom=de=Plume
Older diesels do not need any electricity once they have been started.

They make battery eliminators for small engines that can be started
mechanically by other means. The battery eliminator prevents the
charging system from going over voltage without a battery as a load.
Small motorbikes, lawn tractors, etc can be converted if they have a
mechanical cranking alternative.

It's only practical to start very small engines without some means of
mechnically assisted cranking. So if you're talking about a small
generator or something similar that has a simple diesel engine then
what you suggest may be practical.

I don't think you are going to find yourself in a situation where a
battery has gone from working to failed, and the charging system is
still working, and the engine is still running from it's initial
startup. Diesel or gas. And you are not going to hand crank any
diesel capable of moving a boat. So your questions, while possibly
interesting theoretically, have no practical application.


Reply: Thanks for the information... clarified it well. I was just curious.

--
Nom=de=Plume

On Apr 28, 1:39*pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Loogypicker" wrote in message

...
On Apr 28, 1:19 am, "nom=de=plume" wrote:



"Bill McKee" wrote in message

om...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
I read the wiki on diesels, and I think I read that if a diesel is
running, then it doesn't need a spark (e.g., battery energy) to keep
running. If that's the case, then it seems like you should be able to
start a diesel by hand, assuming you have the muscle or leverage. So, in
the former case, even if your battery died - perhaps got wet and shorted
out - then the engine would keep running. In the latter situation if the
battery was already dead, you might be able to crank it to start it.

--
Nom=de=Plume

In the old days you could do just that. Any modern diesel has electronic
controls.

I guess you're unable to understand what I wrote. Did I mention recently
that you're an idiot?

--
Nom=de=Plume- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Bill answered your post correctly. Why the hatred?

No hatred, and no he didn't answer the questions I asked.

Bill told you exactly the same thing as jps, he just used less words
to express the same thoughts. You reacted differently. There's your
"hatred".

Oh, and you never asked any questions in your post, you simply made
some statements of your understanding after having read a wiki. A
question would be something like... Am I correct? Do they work like
this? There isn't a single question mark in your post, or even a
sentence formed as a question.

Your conversational and social skills are sorely lacking.

Loogypicker wrote:
On Apr 28, 1:19 am, wrote:

"Bill wrote in message

m...








wrote in message
...

I read the wiki on diesels, and I think I read that if a diesel is
running, then it doesn't need a spark (e.g., battery energy) to keep
running. If that's the case, then it seems like you should be able to
start a diesel by hand, assuming you have the muscle or leverage. So, in
the former case, even if your battery died - perhaps got wet and shorted
out - then the engine would keep running. In the latter situation if the
battery was already dead, you might be able to crank it to start it.


--
Nom=de=Plume


In the old days you could do just that. Any modern diesel has electronic
controls.

I guess you're unable to understand what I wrote. Did I mention recently
that you're an idiot?

--
Nom=de=Plume- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bill answered your post correctly. Why the hatred?

She lives for confrontation.