So I'm back to this question again. I thought we had it settled when we were
going to
have someone else build us a trailer, but now that we're going to build it
ourselves,
all options are open again.

I looked back at the answers from the April 10, 2003 thread "Trailer Brake
Questions" and at
other sources on the web. Any other information or comment would be
welcome and appreciated.


ELECTRIC BRAKES
+ More control over the braking
+ The brakes work in reverse, which might help at the ramp
- Might cost more ?
- Can't use in (salt) water
(Some people said they use in water without problem. Maybe special/newer
models)
- Any tow vehicle has to be wired for it.
- Have to have & maintain a backup battery on the trailer to activate the
brakes in an emergency separation.

ELECTRIC over HYDRAULIC:
This is where the controller is electric but that controlls a hydraulic
master cylinder.
+ Still have the finer control of electiric.
+ The brakes work in reverse
+ No problem in water as the electric is no in the water.
- Higher cost?
- Tow vehicle has to be wired for it.
- Have to have & maintain a backup battery on the trailer to activate the
brakes in an emergency separation.

HYDRAULIC-SURGE:
+ Self contained on the trailer, no special wiring on vehicle
+ Works fine, possibly lower cost.
+ Can have free-backing brakes or reverse-lockout-solenoid so brakes are not
active when backing.
- Breaks do not work in reverse...which you might want on a steep/slippery
ramp.
- May be illegal in some states ??


QUESTION:
On a hydraulic system, if there was any problem with one fitting or line
would that
mean the breaks on all four wheels (dual-axel trailer) would stop working?

QUESTION:
On a hydraulic system, if there was any problem with one fitting or line
would that
mean the breaks on all four wheels (dual-axel trailer) would stop working?


If the problem with the fitting allows all the fluid to be bled out of the
master cylinder reservoir, then yes. All the wheel cylinders get their
fluid supply from the master cylinder reservoir. The braking systems on
each wheel are not isolated from each other. I've had exactly that happen.
Had a small leak in a brake line connection somewhere on the trailer and
didn't know about it. Eventually, the master cylinder reservoir was bled
essentially dry. At that point, no trailer brakes. Makes for an
interesting discovery on a 14K+ pound boat and trailer rig. Found the
leaking connection, tightened it, refilled the reservoir, and was good to go
again. System self bled the air in the lines during the next several
braking attempts.

I would highly recommend hydraulic-surge disk brakes. As you stated, can be
used on any vehicle. The disk are very maintenance free and work well.
Problem with electric brakes as you pointed out is they only work on
vehicles wired for them. Not many people will ever want a boat trailer that
has electric brakes on it.

--
Tony
My boats and autos - http://t.thomas.home.mchsi.com



"Gary Warner" wrote in message
...
So I'm back to this question again. I thought we had it settled when we
were
going to
have someone else build us a trailer, but now that we're going to build it
ourselves,
all options are open again.

I looked back at the answers from the April 10, 2003 thread "Trailer Brake
Questions" and at
other sources on the web. Any other information or comment would be
welcome and appreciated.


ELECTRIC BRAKES
+ More control over the braking
+ The brakes work in reverse, which might help at the ramp
- Might cost more ?
- Can't use in (salt) water
(Some people said they use in water without problem. Maybe
special/newer
models)
- Any tow vehicle has to be wired for it.
- Have to have & maintain a backup battery on the trailer to activate the
brakes in an emergency separation.

ELECTRIC over HYDRAULIC:
This is where the controller is electric but that controlls a hydraulic
master cylinder.
+ Still have the finer control of electiric.
+ The brakes work in reverse
+ No problem in water as the electric is no in the water.
- Higher cost?
- Tow vehicle has to be wired for it.
- Have to have & maintain a backup battery on the trailer to activate the
brakes in an emergency separation.

HYDRAULIC-SURGE:
+ Self contained on the trailer, no special wiring on vehicle
+ Works fine, possibly lower cost.
+ Can have free-backing brakes or reverse-lockout-solenoid so brakes are
not
active when backing.
- Breaks do not work in reverse...which you might want on a steep/slippery
ramp.
- May be illegal in some states ??


QUESTION:
On a hydraulic system, if there was any problem with one fitting or line
would that
mean the breaks on all four wheels (dual-axel trailer) would stop working?

"Tony Thomas" wrote in

I would highly recommend hydraulic-surge disk brakes.



Yea, Hydraulic-Surge Disk is what we have "decided."
But I'm one to keep looking at options down until the moment
we actually order/pay for the things. Thanks for the advice.

I run Kodiak disks on a single axle of my trailer. 4400# fully loaded. I
tow into the mountains, Sierra Nevada and other lakes around the SF Bay
area. Coming back from Napa and Lake Berryessa this weekend, Long downhill
portions and I tow with a 99 Expedition, was thinking how nice these brakes
worked. No feel of ever running out of brakes on the tow vehicle, and the
trailer not pushing the Exp around.
bill

"Gary Warner" wrote in message
...


"Tony Thomas" wrote in

I would highly recommend hydraulic-surge disk brakes.



Yea, Hydraulic-Surge Disk is what we have "decided."
But I'm one to keep looking at options down until the moment
we actually order/pay for the things. Thanks for the advice.

"Gary Warner" wrote in message
...


ELECTRIC BRAKES
+ More control over the braking

Electric brakes give you the option of reaching down and manually applying
just the trailer brakes, which can help stabilize a swaying trailer. A very
nice feature for top heavy RV trailers.

The disadvantage of electrics is that the amount of braking applied to the
trailer is NOT a function of how hard you are stepping on the brake pedal!
The controller is sensitive to angle, so you can end up with way too much
trailer brakes when going down a steep hill and no brakes when heading up a
hill (which I suppose is better than the other way around....).

The settings on the contoller is also a function of the trailer's weight.
This is not a problem on a RV trailer, which doesn't change its weight very
much. You might be a little surprised with the boat trailer on the first
stop you make after launching the boat!

For having the most appropriate amount of trailer brakes, you can't beat
surge. They are self adjusting to trailer weight and allow the tow vehicle
to be in control. The one disadvantage is that the trailer can "ride the
brakes" when going down a step hill and you are using the engine to hold the
speed down.

+ The brakes work in reverse, which might help at the ramp

If they work at all, they would only work if you reached down and manually
applied them, stepping on the brake pedal will do nothing. The electic
brakes on my RV trailer do NOT work in reverse even when manually applied.
The brakes work by having an electromagnet "stick" to the face of the brake
drum. The rotation of the drum attempts to drag the magnet with it. The
magent is attached to an arm that couples into the brake actuator. In
reverse, the rotation of the wheel is the wrong way. I suppose that there
are some systems that have the magnet arm rest in a center position, but if
you want this feature make sure you get that style.

- Might cost more ?

Electrics are sure easy to install, especially if you have the appropriate
flange on the axel. No matter what, you need to have the brake drums and
backing plates. If you were converting an old trailer instead of buying new
I would say electric is far cheaper because you don't have to change the
tongue.

- Can't use in (salt) water
(Some people said they use in water without problem. Maybe
special/newer
models)

I would certainly be concerned about the life of the magnets in salt
water.

- Any tow vehicle has to be wired for it.

Most newer SUVs and trucks that come equipped with the factory "tow
package" are prewired for the electric brake controls. If yours is one,
check under the dash to see if there is a ~6 pin cable/connector tucked up
under there. Then look in the glove box to see if the mating connector
happens to be there! If not, you can buy the mating connector from anyplace
that sells the brake controllers.

- Have to have & maintain a backup battery on the trailer to activate the
brakes in an emergency separation.

On my RV trailer, I just wired it into the house battery. On a boat
trailer, you will need to mount this battery in such a place that it won't
get ruined by being dunked in the water. You can buy 12 volt dry cells
that will last a couple of years and never needs charging.





ELECTRIC over HYDRAULIC:
This is where the controller is electric but that controlls a hydraulic
master cylinder.

I never understood this system, it seems like it combines the worst parts
of both.




If you go with electric brakes, consider the following:

The electric brake controller only operates when your brake lights are lit.
This means that an electrical failure in your stop light circuit will render
your trailer brakes inoperative. The failure could be from either the stop
light switch failing or from the fuse blowing. When you connect your boat
trailer, you double the load on the brake light circuit. Twice the current
that the brake light swtich has to operate on. Twice the current that the
fuse has to hold. Add to that the potential that a short can easily develop
in the trailer wiring, from such things as the connecting cable dragging on
the ground or salt water getting into the lights.

In order for the trailer brakes to work you have to have a fairly good
electrical connection to the trailer. Ever have trouble getting the
connector to work? Ever have to wiggle the connector a little bit before
you had both brake and tail lights? Now add the brake circuit to that mix,
except it isn't always easy to tell if you have connection, until you need
the connection.

And just wait until you have had some passenger wonder what that little knob
does and plays with it while you were pumping gas! Damn, its embarrasing to
have your trailer brakes lock up at the first stop light because some little
kid played with the gain control on the brake controller!

I have electric brakes on my RV trailer, and surge brakes on my boat
trailer. I like them both, where they are.

Rod McInnis

"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...


Some interesting points I hadn't heard before, particularly
about how the weight of boat trailers changes with/without
the boat.

Thannks.

Gary Warner wrote in message
...


"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...


Some interesting points I hadn't heard before, particularly
about how the weight of boat trailers changes with/without
the boat.

Thannks.



Surge brakes now have my respect. During my recent trip towing a boat to
Florida from Ma, a gas tanker truck driver suddenly decided to attempt to
take an exit from the middle lane of a five lane section of I-95. I
happened to be about 300 feet behind him as he failed to make the exit and
ended up blocking the middle and right lanes. I was doing about 65 mph, and
with traffic to the left and right, there was nothing left to do but stand
on the brake and hold my breath. The truck and trailer (equipped with
hydraulic surge brakes) stopped straight as an arrow, about 4 feet from the
stopped gas tanker. Also have to give credit to the anti-lock system on the
truck.

Eisboch

I also vote for surge brakes but there were a few things about
electric that were incorrect or at least misleading.

I have a travel trailer with electric brakes.
They do work in reverse.
In fact they work so well in reverse that I have to turn them
off when backing as it becomes very difficult to back into my
home parking spot with them on.

Some electric controllers use a pendulum and they may not
work in reverse.
Other controllers simply are tapped into your brake lights.
When your brake lights are on the controller is applying braking
voltage to the trailer.
Since every car or truck I've ever seen has brake lights that work in reverse,
this type controller would also work in reverse.

With most any controller it is a simple thumb wheel adjustment to
change the sensitivity of the electric braking. The adjustment
on surge brakes is not at your fingertips.
If you remember to do it, it's a simple thing to turn them off
when you have launched your boat so as not to skid your tires
when you are parking the empty trailer.
Don't forget to turn them back on when you put your boat back on!!

I still vote for surge but electric have moved up in my opinion from
years ago.

Peace!
Dan D. Louisville Ky good ole USA

"Dan D." wrote in message
om...

I have a travel trailer with electric brakes.
They do work in reverse.
In fact they work so well in reverse that I have to turn them
off when backing as it becomes very difficult to back into my
home parking spot with them on.

Why is that, do you keep your foot on the brake when you back up?




Some electric controllers use a pendulum and they may not
work in reverse.
Other controllers simply are tapped into your brake lights.
When your brake lights are on the controller is applying braking
voltage to the trailer.



I have never seen a controller like this, can you provide a brand name?

I have seen three different types of controllers:

Long ago, you used to be able to get a little pad thingy that strapped over
the top of your brake pedal. When you stepped on the brake, you stepped on
this pad and it sensed how hard you were pressing on the brake pedal and
applied the trailer brakes accordingly. There was still a controller just
under the dash where you adjusted how much trailer brakes for how much pedal
pressure. I am not sure why these went away, but I can imagin it was
because brake pedals got smaller and they may have had interference
problems.

There are controllers that tap into the tow vehicles hydraulic brake system
and will sense the pressure in the hydraulic line. This would be ideal for
controlling the trailer brakes! Years ago, when cars had simple brake
systems, this type of controller was easy to install and no problems. Then
cars started having dual master cylinders. Then cars starting having front
disk and rear drum, and had proportioning valves. Then anti lock braking
was introduced. The bottom line is that you could be taking a big risk to
make any modifications to the brake system, and I have been told that it is
illegal to do so.

The most common controller is the pendulum type. It uses the pendulum to
sense the decelleration of the car, and if the brake lights are also on, it
applies the trailer brakes. Which of course increases the decelleration,
which increases the trailer brakes, which increases the decelleration,
etc....

I have never seen a system that simply applied the trailer brakes whenever
the stop light was on. First off, such a controller would only have one
setting. On a panic stop, you really want those trailer brakes to work to
their fullest extent. On the other hand, you sure don't want the trailer to
drag you to a quick stop just because you tapped the brakes slightly.

On the pendulum type, if you adjusted it incorrectly you could get the
results of what you describe. Crank the pendulum level so that it was
always on, then adjust the gain to get the desired level of braking. Like I
said above, you would only have the one setting, so you would not be getting
the full use of the brakes.

Most of the pendulum controllers have a two-color LED that provides status
and feedback. On mine, the LED is off when there is no connection to the
trailer. When the trailer is connected, but no brakes are applied, the led
is GREEN. Step on the brake and the led will change towards red based on
the pendulum setting. To properly adjust the unit, you start with the rig
on flat ground, at a stand still. With your foot on the brake, adjust the
LEVEL control until the LED just changes from GREEN to a dim red. Now, with
your foot very lightly on the brake, let the rig roll forward and adjust the
GAIN setting so that you can just barely detect the trailer brakes (usually
the squeek....). This is a good place to start. The pendulum level setting
is usually right on now, so any further adjustments are on the gain. Crank
it up if you like to feel the trailer holding you back on a normal stop.
Lower the gain if your trailer tends to drag you to a faster stop than you
wanted.

Rod McInnis