This is a great post but the "but/butt" part got all the attention. That's
fine, it's an important point but the real teaser in this is the part that
didn't get written yet and I think that will be the best part.

So let this thread deal with the wake stuff and start another one with the
stories. You must have few that we can chew on while our boats are filled
with antifreeze, fogged and shrink wrapped.

My God, I'm already going into withdrawls.



"QLW" wrote in message
...
We just returned to Texas yesterday after completing an entire summer of
boating, first on lake Summerville in W.Va. and then a 700+ mile circuit
starting at lock 6 of the Erie Canal then to Oswego, Thousand Islands,
Redeau Canal, Ottawa River, Lachine Canal, St. Lawrance to the Richlieu
Canal, Lake Champlain and finally the Champlain Canal back to lock 6 on
the
Erie. Over eight wonderful weeks spend on the water. Over 100 locks and
while the exact milage is hard to nail down (due to many side trips) I'd
guess over 900. After a few "teething" problems were worked out, both
boats
worked flawlessly. The weather was great , as were the vast majority of
the
people, both boaters and landlubbers, that we met. What a great way to
spend a summer. The only thing that I would change is to take more time
to
make the trip. We are allredy making plans to go back and do the Trent
Severn and Lake Champlain next summer.

BUT! (there's always a but/butt) there was a recurring problem with power
boaters that just sticks in my craw everytime I think about the trip. I
got
absolutely feed up with the discourtesy and poor boating skills of a high
percentage of the power boaters, both American and Canadian. I can cite
instance after instance where power craft should have slowed to no wake or
given more space and often created potentially dangerous conflicts where
none should have existed. Common courtesy seems to be left on the shore
by
many/most of these jerks. It got so bad in some of the narrow canals that
I
started taking video and was tempted to turn them in to the CG. I don't
know how it could be done by law, but there should be some way to hold
these
( mainly 30+ foot) planning hull boats to a set of rules that will stop
them. The damage to the shoreline and the discomfort caused to other
boaters has to be just as important as the right to run around creating 3
to
5 foot wakes.

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:58:10 GMT, "Paul" wrote:

My God, I'm already going into withdrawls.

==================================

I met Texans with drawls once. What kind of stories do you want? If
you could capture all of the collective stories in this group, you
could write a book or two.

Some of it would be true, and that's a fact.

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:10:05 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

Throwing a large wake is not necessarily rude, discourteous or
unprofessional. Wakes are a fact of power boating and anyone who
boats in an area frequented by large, fast moving power boats needs to
be prepared for them. I don't like getting rocked any more than
anyone else, but it happens and more often than not, the power boat
throwing the wake is within his rights and is just trying to get
somewhere. The NYS barge canal for example has a speed limit of 10
mph whis is at least 30 to 40% over hull speed for most power
cruisers. The result is a fair sized wake. I will try to slow down
for canoes or other small open boats if I see them in time but it
isn't always possible. Anyone else should be prepared to deal with
the occassional wake or stay off the water. That's just the way it
is. Have you ever seen the wake that a tug boat or lake freighter
leaves when it is trying to get somewhere in a hurry?

============================================

Wayne-

Perhaps a different angle on your post: You can throw as much wake as
you care to be responsible for...

I have no problem with large boats trying to "make way" in the NYS
barge canal. Most of them know their boats and try to throttle to an
efficient speed, without rocking the molars out of bystanders.

I get a kick out of the "5 mph" marina zones, as one of my boats makes
less wake at 20mph than it does at 5mph. ...but I comply. I also
encounter "more money than brains" boaters that push a wall of water
in a 100' wide channel. If you're fishing in a jon boat at the time,
it can be an experience to remember.

I'm not sure what you mean about the "30 to 40% over hull speed for
most power cruisers..". The one's that give me, and others, trouble
are the guys with the 30+ footers at half throttle, pushing
4-plus-feet of water and a rolling wake. In the Barge Canal, this can
flip a small boat, and do significant damage to docks and moored
boats. No law says that you have to be considerate, it just says that
you are responsible for your wake, and that's a *good* thing.

....carry on.
noah

To email me, please remove the "FISH" from the net.

I'm looking for a small trawler ( 30'+, hull speed boat) to add to my
Paceship, Prindle, Al. Jon boat and Carolina skiff. I'll never own a big
planning hull boat simply because of the high cost of operation. If you
spend the amount of time that I do on the water, fuel consumption becomes a
real issue. BTW Mr. Krause, If you can't effortlessly maneuver around a
sailboat traveling at hull speed when under sail or power maybe you're in
the wrong sport. Exactly how many times have you been "run down" by sail
boats? I have some really good video of "power boater" misbehavior /
incompetence from this summer and not one single instance of a hull speed
boat (sail or power) occurred for me to shoot. The Trawlers seemed
particularly well captained.

Here's what I said before, Y'all must have missed it.

"Unlike most weekend boaters, I live on the water and my dock and boats
(both
power and sail) are setup so that wake is not a problem. I also sometimes
make wake
with my fishing boat and seadoo right out in front of my house that affects
my and my neighbors boats and piers. OTH if there are people in boats out
in the narrow sections I slow down and in the wide sections I give them a
wide berth. I am mainly referring to large boats running past hull speed in
the canals that are designated 6 mph zones and other areas that common sense
should be enough to dictate a change in speed. I'll soon have a 30'+ power
boat in my boat house that will be capable of creating a large wake and I'll
have the courtesy not to inflict that wake on others. Out in the open bay,
wakes are not a concern. But it was not just the wakes that I've found to
separate planning hull boats from the hull speed bunch, it's an attitude
thing.

That's not to say that we didn't meet some friendly courteous power boaters
(remember, I'm one too) but we sure endured a bunch of jerks too. Like the
one 40 footer that came roaring past our two sail boats as we approached the
park docks on McGregor Island (1000 Islands) sending a huge wake into all of
the boats tied up at the docks. It looked like there was only one dock
space left and he was going to have it...everyone else be damned. As it
turned out, there was another boat traveling with him that did not have
enough room to get past us or just chose not to pull the same stupid stunt
and it pulled up outside the dock area and waited. There were actually
three dock spaces left but one was in really shallow water. We took the two
slips in deeper water but after checking the depth determined that I could
move to the shallow slip if my keel was up and we did that to allow the
other boat to dock. I wonder if the 1st jerk would have extended me the
same courtesy had the roles been reversed... I really doubt it. I can
relate many more instances in the same vein but won't waste the time...you
should get the drift.

Because I live on a fairly busy waterway and I spent a lot of time out on
the water, I see boater behavior on a daily basis and I can say without
fear of contradiction that planning hull power-boaters, as a group, are by
far the most discourteous, unseamanly and environmentally unfriendly of all
boater groups. I know that PWC can be a problem in some areas but they have
been a non-issue for us and we see a lot of them. I don't believe that I
should just "get over" bad behavior on the part of any group of people and
from this point on I'll take video and turn the jerks in when it is clear
that they are breaking an established set of rules. I did exactly that to
the commercial fishermen that were using our Bayou as a dumping ground for
their old boats. After the CG and Sheriff used my video to nab a few of
them, they no longer dump their boats...at least not in this bayou. It
really ****es me off that we have instituted a tough set of rules for the
PWC in Texas and yet let the big boats do far more damage without
consequence. 600' ships produce less wake than these idiots.
Hell, I don't mind waves or wakes. My boat can handle it. I often seek out
black clouds to sail under just to get really good rail down sailing. But
not in an anchorage, narrow channel or where my boat handling will adversely
affect other boats.

It's interesting to note that the other boat that accompanied us on this
trip is captained by a highly experienced man that has done professional
sal****er boat deliveries for years.( Mainly large power boats BTW) At one
point during the trip he said
"I know parts of Texas and Louisiana where these jerks would be running
around with numerous .30 cal leaks at the waterline if they behaved like
this very often".


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Clarence Bell wrote:

If you boat anywhere near Annapolis in the summer, you have to keep a
constant watch for discourteous sailboters who think nothing of running
you down if you are in their way. Or, the sailbot captains become dazed
by the heat and the inability of their crafts to move at hull speed.

On 29 Sep 2003 22:34:14 -0500, noah
wrote:

Perhaps a different angle on your post: You can throw as much wake as
you care to be responsible for...

This is true but it's always a judgement call and it's not uncommon to
be surprised by boats that are hidden beyond a bend or along shore.


I have no problem with large boats trying to "make way" in the NYS
barge canal. Most of them know their boats and try to throttle to an
efficient speed, without rocking the molars out of bystanders.

Yes,


I get a kick out of the "5 mph" marina zones, as one of my boats makes
less wake at 20mph than it does at 5mph. ...but I comply.

Yes again, this is mindless law at it's best, but remember that if you
throttled back to hull speed of perhaps 3 or 4 knots, you would leave
no wake at all.

I also
encounter "more money than brains" boaters that push a wall of water
in a 100' wide channel. If you're fishing in a jon boat at the time,
it can be an experience to remember.

This speaks to my point regarding appropriate boats for the
conditions. Would you take that same jon boat out onto Lake Ontario
with a summer thunderstorm pending? I hope not. Should you take your
jon boat to a body of water that may experience a large power boat
wake? That's your call. If I see you in time I'll slow down but
there's no guarantee.

I'm not sure what you mean about the "30 to 40% over hull speed for
most power cruisers..". The one's that give me, and others, trouble
are the guys with the 30+ footers at half throttle, pushing
4-plus-feet of water and a rolling wake.

Hull speed for a 36 footer is about 7 knots (1.32 x SQRT LWL where
LWL is waterline length). Above that speed the boat digs in and tries
to climb its own bow wave until it reaches planing speed which is well
above the canal limit so it never happens. Virtually all power boats
running at the canal speed limit are well over hull speed, and by
definition, creating a wake. The heavier the boat, the bigger the
wake.

In the Barge Canal, this can
flip a small boat,

It can flip a small boat anywhere which goes back to my point about
suitability. Would you take an open canoe into NY harbor and expect
no issues?

and do significant damage to docks and moored
boats. No law says that you have to be considerate, it just says that
you are responsible for your wake, and that's a *good* thing.

The only sure way to avoid damage in a high traffic area is to use a
boat lift or mooring whips. Too many people don't do that. I grew up
on the Oswego canal back in the 50s and 60s when there was still a
significant amount of commercial traffic. You should have seen the
wakes that the barges and tugs created. If you went out in a canoe or
small boat, that was your problem.

From: "Clarence Bell"

One of the most common discourtesies that I see in the Chesapeake Bay is
sail boaters under power with sails up in a dead calm wind demanding the
right of way because they can only make 6 kts after they turn in front of
the "stand-on" vessel.

A sail boat with sail up but under power is considered a power boat until the
engine is shut down and they are under sail only. It is a commonly used ploy
here on the Great Lakes. Needless to say when passing a sail boat I try not to
rock the boat.

Well, when you really get to it, the water should be reserved for
those who can afford to own property on it. All these inexperienced
folks who wish to raise thier kids on the water should really know
their place and stick to their kiddie pools...
Talk about arrogant... You sound like a spoiled rotten teenager who
has never been told no!
Scotty


"QLW" wrote in message ...
I'm looking for a small trawler ( 30'+, hull speed boat) to add to my
Paceship, Prindle, Al. Jon boat and Carolina skiff. I'll never own a big
planning hull boat simply because of the high cost of operation. If you
spend the amount of time that I do on the water, fuel consumption becomes a
real issue. BTW Mr. Krause, If you can't effortlessly maneuver around a
sailboat traveling at hull speed when under sail or power maybe you're in
the wrong sport. Exactly how many times have you been "run down" by sail
boats? I have some really good video of "power boater" misbehavior /
incompetence from this summer and not one single instance of a hull speed
boat (sail or power) occurred for me to shoot. The Trawlers seemed
particularly well captained.

Here's what I said before, Y'all must have missed it.

"Unlike most weekend boaters, I live on the water and my dock and boats
(both
power and sail) are setup so that wake is not a problem. I also sometimes
make wake
with my fishing boat and seadoo right out in front of my house that affects
my and my neighbors boats and piers. OTH if there are people in boats out
in the narrow sections I slow down and in the wide sections I give them a
wide berth. I am mainly referring to large boats running past hull speed in
the canals that are designated 6 mph zones and other areas that common sense
should be enough to dictate a change in speed. I'll soon have a 30'+ power
boat in my boat house that will be capable of creating a large wake and I'll
have the courtesy not to inflict that wake on others. Out in the open bay,
wakes are not a concern. But it was not just the wakes that I've found to
separate planning hull boats from the hull speed bunch, it's an attitude
thing.

That's not to say that we didn't meet some friendly courteous power boaters
(remember, I'm one too) but we sure endured a bunch of jerks too. Like the
one 40 footer that came roaring past our two sail boats as we approached the
park docks on McGregor Island (1000 Islands) sending a huge wake into all of
the boats tied up at the docks. It looked like there was only one dock
space left and he was going to have it...everyone else be damned. As it
turned out, there was another boat traveling with him that did not have
enough room to get past us or just chose not to pull the same stupid stunt
and it pulled up outside the dock area and waited. There were actually
three dock spaces left but one was in really shallow water. We took the two
slips in deeper water but after checking the depth determined that I could
move to the shallow slip if my keel was up and we did that to allow the
other boat to dock. I wonder if the 1st jerk would have extended me the
same courtesy had the roles been reversed... I really doubt it. I can
relate many more instances in the same vein but won't waste the time...you
should get the drift.

Because I live on a fairly busy waterway and I spent a lot of time out on
the water, I see boater behavior on a daily basis and I can say without
fear of contradiction that planning hull power-boaters, as a group, are by
far the most discourteous, unseamanly and environmentally unfriendly of all
boater groups. I know that PWC can be a problem in some areas but they have
been a non-issue for us and we see a lot of them. I don't believe that I
should just "get over" bad behavior on the part of any group of people and
from this point on I'll take video and turn the jerks in when it is clear
that they are breaking an established set of rules. I did exactly that to
the commercial fishermen that were using our Bayou as a dumping ground for
their old boats. After the CG and Sheriff used my video to nab a few of
them, they no longer dump their boats...at least not in this bayou. It
really ****es me off that we have instituted a tough set of rules for the
PWC in Texas and yet let the big boats do far more damage without
consequence. 600' ships produce less wake than these idiots.
Hell, I don't mind waves or wakes. My boat can handle it. I often seek out
black clouds to sail under just to get really good rail down sailing. But
not in an anchorage, narrow channel or where my boat handling will adversely
affect other boats.

It's interesting to note that the other boat that accompanied us on this
trip is captained by a highly experienced man that has done professional
sal****er boat deliveries for years.( Mainly large power boats BTW) At one
point during the trip he said
"I know parts of Texas and Louisiana where these jerks would be running
around with numerous .30 cal leaks at the waterline if they behaved like
this very often".


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Clarence Bell wrote:

If you boat anywhere near Annapolis in the summer, you have to keep a
constant watch for discourteous sailboters who think nothing of running
you down if you are in their way. Or, the sailbot captains become dazed
by the heat and the inability of their crafts to move at hull speed.

One of the most common discourtesies that I see in the Chesapeake Bay is
sail boaters under power with sails up in a dead calm wind demanding the
right of way because they can only make 6 kts after they turn in front of
the "stand-on" vessel.

Unless I misunderstand the intent of your statement, you may have misused the
term "stand on". A recreational powerboat is only the "stand on" vessel in an
encounter with a vessel under sail in two (common) situations.

1) When being overtaken by a vessel under sail (Oh! The Shame of it all!)

2) When the power boat is participating in a VTS. (The rules just say that no
vessel under sail shall impede a power boat following a VTS, no requirement
that the power boat must be a commercial vessel)


(Some) sailors pull the same stunt around here, too. They will run with a
little pocket hanky of a sail showing, making seven knots under power, and
presume to behave
like nearby vessels are all subject to their
supposed "right of way" because they haven't completely doused the sails.

Worst language and manners I ever encountered on the water: A sailboat, totally
under power and without sail of *any* variety, was approaching at 90 degrees
from port. Our relative bearing did not change. We got closer and closer.
As the stand on vessel, I was required to maintain my course and speed unless a
collision was imminent. The sailor stared at me like I must have been out of my
mind. When it became apparent that he was not going to change course or speed
(as required) to avoid collision, I throttled back and put the wheel hard to
starboard.

He passed maybe 30 feet away. Against my better judgment, I reminded him
"You're just another powerboat when you
aren't running under sail!"

Wow! The gestures, the anger, the air turning blue! I thought the guy was going
to have a seizure. What an asshole. Maybe it was because I called him a
"powerboater"?

Worst almost crash with a sailboat was couple of years ago, I am trolling
and he is coming out of the Alameda Estuary channel under power. Turns off
motor raises sails and turns 90 degrees 30' in front of me. He says he is
under sail. Should have called the CG on him and reported the bad manners.
Then if he is in a collision with another boat, there is bad marks against
him

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
One of the most common discourtesies that I see in the Chesapeake Bay is
sail boaters under power with sails up in a dead calm wind demanding the
right of way because they can only make 6 kts after they turn in front
of
the "stand-on" vessel.

Unless I misunderstand the intent of your statement, you may have misused
the
term "stand on". A recreational powerboat is only the "stand on" vessel in
an
encounter with a vessel under sail in two (common) situations.

1) When being overtaken by a vessel under sail (Oh! The Shame of it all!)

2) When the power boat is participating in a VTS. (The rules just say that
no
vessel under sail shall impede a power boat following a VTS, no
requirement
that the power boat must be a commercial vessel)


(Some) sailors pull the same stunt around here, too. They will run with a
little pocket hanky of a sail showing, making seven knots under power, and
presume to behave
like nearby vessels are all subject to their
supposed "right of way" because they haven't completely doused the sails.

Worst language and manners I ever encountered on the water: A sailboat,
totally
under power and without sail of *any* variety, was approaching at 90
degrees
from port. Our relative bearing did not change. We got closer and closer.
As the stand on vessel, I was required to maintain my course and speed
unless a
collision was imminent. The sailor stared at me like I must have been out
of my
mind. When it became apparent that he was not going to change course or
speed
(as required) to avoid collision, I throttled back and put the wheel hard
to
starboard.

He passed maybe 30 feet away. Against my better judgment, I reminded him
"You're just another powerboat when you
aren't running under sail!"

Wow! The gestures, the anger, the air turning blue! I thought the guy was
going
to have a seizure. What an asshole. Maybe it was because I called him a
"powerboater"?

Backyard Renegade wrote:



"QLW" wrote in message ...

BTW Mr. Krause, If you can't effortlessly maneuver around a
sailboat traveling at hull speed when under sail or power maybe you're in
the wrong sport. Exactly how many times have you been "run down" by sail
boats?

It sometimes is difficult to maneuver out of the way of a dazed
sailboter when your boat is not moving, except by wind, current and boat
wakes, because you are anchored.


* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.