From: WaIIy

Also, it's good form to pass behind, not across the bow of a sailboat.

True which is my usual method of passing a sailboat whether under power or
sail. In my boating years I have found that most sailors (sailboats) are polite
and most wave back when I wave to them.

To each their own. I don't have the patience to be a sailboater I like to get
where I am going relatively quickly.

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:41:52 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

Worst almost crash with a sailboat was couple of years ago, I am trolling
and he is coming out of the Alameda Estuary channel under power. Turns off
motor raises sails and turns 90 degrees 30' in front of me. He says he is
under sail. Should have called the CG on him and reported the bad manners.
Then if he is in a collision with another boat, there is bad marks against
him


snip

He probably thought he was changing form from power to sail as the
rules apply.
He, like a lot of other boaters, didn't realize that boat form (sail
or power) is locked in the first instant of someone realizing there is
a chance of collision or a crossing/overtaking situation.
Or then again, he could just have been an asshole.
Mark Williams

"Maynard G. Krebbs" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:41:52 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

Worst almost crash with a sailboat was couple of years ago, I am trolling
and he is coming out of the Alameda Estuary channel under power. Turns
off
motor raises sails and turns 90 degrees 30' in front of me. He says he
is
under sail. Should have called the CG on him and reported the bad
manners.
Then if he is in a collision with another boat, there is bad marks
against
him


snip

He probably thought he was changing form from power to sail as the
rules apply.
He, like a lot of other boaters, didn't realize that boat form (sail
or power) is locked in the first instant of someone realizing there is
a chance of collision or a crossing/overtaking situation.
Or then again, he could just have been an asshole.
Mark Williams

I'll go with idiot. To make a 90 degree turn in front of any boat just
because you are are a sailboat or any boat shows immense lack of boating
skills, as well as a brain to know you do not know enough.

Rule 17 - Action by Stand-on Vessel

"Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her
course and speed."

So not only is it inadvisable to tack right in front of another boat, power
or sail notwithstanding, it's also illegal.

====

Charles T. Low
- remove "UN"
www.boatdocking.com
www.ctlow.ca/Trojan26 - my boat

====


"Calif Bill" wrote in message
nk.net...
I'll go with idiot. To make a 90 degree turn in front of any boat just
because you are are a sailboat or any boat shows immense lack of boating
skills, as well as a brain to know you do not know enough.

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 23:43:36 -0500, "Charles T. Low"
wrote:

Rule 17 - Action by Stand-on Vessel

"Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her
course and speed."

So not only is it inadvisable to tack right in front of another boat, power
or sail notwithstanding, it's also illegal.

While agreed that the described boats actions were not correct, it is
not possible to simplify as You have done above.

To "Keep course and speed" does not mean literally to stay on exact
course and maintained speed until You are you are out of sight of the
give-way vessel. It means to continue Your voyage under normal
conditions, including turning to follow a shipping lane, reducing
speed to avoid wake, and, if You are sailing, to tack where it is
necessary.

If You are tacking in a limited area, You are still "maintaining
course and speed", unless You are unnecessarily disturbing others or
trying of course to intentionally obstruct their way.

So, if You are sailing, You may very well tack more or less in front
of another boat and still be in compliance with Rule 17. This is
something which is often unknown (and disliked) by many motor boaters.

As always, there are limitations and exceptions, for example
limitation by draft, narrow passage etc.

If the expression used are not exactly correct I apologize, my
nautical training is not primarily in English.


/Marcus

--
Marcus AAkesson
Gothenburg Callsigns: SM6XFN & SB4779
Sweden
Keep the world clean - no HTML in news or mail !

Idiot AND asshole. I've seen blowboaters do it before, laughing all the time
"WE'RE UNDER SAIL, WE HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY". I had to go into reverse once
to avoid hitting one who did this. Boy, did he get a wake when I got
underway again.

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Maynard G. Krebbs" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:41:52 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

Worst almost crash with a sailboat was couple of years ago, I am
trolling
and he is coming out of the Alameda Estuary channel under power. Turns
off
motor raises sails and turns 90 degrees 30' in front of me. He says he
is
under sail. Should have called the CG on him and reported the bad
manners.
Then if he is in a collision with another boat, there is bad marks
against
him


snip

He probably thought he was changing form from power to sail as the
rules apply.
He, like a lot of other boaters, didn't realize that boat form (sail
or power) is locked in the first instant of someone realizing there is
a chance of collision or a crossing/overtaking situation.
Or then again, he could just have been an asshole.
Mark Williams

I'll go with idiot. To make a 90 degree turn in front of any boat just
because you are are a sailboat or any boat shows immense lack of boating
skills, as well as a brain to know you do not know enough.

Marcus,

You make some good points, mainly that there will always be exceptions to
what seem like simple, hard-and-fast rules. If tacking was necessary to keep
the "stand-on" saiboat out of danger, then of course it has to tack. Or luff
the sails and slow down while waiting for the power boat to pass... hard to
be dogmatic without seeing an actual situation with all of its many tiny
variations. Ideally the power boat should have seen the necessity for the
tack coming too.

A vessel cannot force another vessel into danger, regardless of which is
stand-on and which give-way, and then claim innocence just by saying it was
following "procedure."

Rule 2(b) - Responsibility

"In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to
all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances,
including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a
departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger."

(Which illustrates that I'm not just making this up.)

Also, the terminology in International sections of the U.S. and Canadian
Rules is not "until you are you are out of sight" (in terms of the stand-on
vessel maintaining course and speed); the term, found in rules 8 and 13, is
"past and clear," and although this pertains to the give-way vessel, I
suspect the principle carries over the to stand-on vessel too. You will also
find several references in the Rules to "well clear," which I take it to
mean to leave lots of room between the boats, not just a little (often
ignored between sailboats in the sailing races in which I participate weekly
over the summer!).

Thank you.

Charles

P.S. Your English is good.

====

Charles T. Low
- remove "UN"
www.boatdocking.com
www.ctlow.ca/Trojan26 - my boat

====

"Marcus AAkesson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 23:43:36 -0500, "Charles T. Low"
wrote:

Rule 17 - Action by Stand-on Vessel

"Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep
her
course and speed."

So not only is it inadvisable to tack right in front of another boat,
power
or sail notwithstanding, it's also illegal.

While agreed that the described boats actions were not correct, it is
not possible to simplify as You have done above.

To "Keep course and speed" does not mean literally to stay on exact
course and maintained speed until You are you are out of sight of the
give-way vessel. It means to continue Your voyage under normal
conditions, including turning to follow a shipping lane, reducing
speed to avoid wake, and, if You are sailing, to tack where it is
necessary.

If You are tacking in a limited area, You are still "maintaining
course and speed", unless You are unnecessarily disturbing others or
trying of course to intentionally obstruct their way.

So, if You are sailing, You may very well tack more or less in front
of another boat and still be in compliance with Rule 17. This is
something which is often unknown (and disliked) by many motor boaters.

As always, there are limitations and exceptions, for example
limitation by draft, narrow passage etc.

If the expression used are not exactly correct I apologize, my
nautical training is not primarily in English.


/Marcus

--
Marcus AAkesson
Gothenburg Callsigns: SM6XFN & SB4779
Sweden

Keith wrote:

Idiot AND asshole. I've seen blowboaters do it before, laughing all the time
"WE'RE UNDER SAIL, WE HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY". I had to go into reverse once
to avoid hitting one who did this. Boy, did he get a wake when I got
underway again.

I think you have a vastly mistaken idea about what sailboats can & can't do. No
doubt a lot of sailors do too; but the fact remains that I have been sailing for
over 40 years now and have never once met any sailor who deliberately tacked in
front of a motorboat. So who is the idiot/asshole now?

DSK

You must not have sailed San Francisco bay. I have heard sailors laugh
about going in front of a freighter and saying they had the right of way.
Amazing Darwin does not get more of them.

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Keith wrote:

Idiot AND asshole. I've seen blowboaters do it before, laughing all the
time
"WE'RE UNDER SAIL, WE HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY". I had to go into reverse
once
to avoid hitting one who did this. Boy, did he get a wake when I got
underway again.

I think you have a vastly mistaken idea about what sailboats can & can't
do. No
doubt a lot of sailors do too; but the fact remains that I have been
sailing for
over 40 years now and have never once met any sailor who deliberately
tacked in
front of a motorboat. So who is the idiot/asshole now?

DSK

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 07:00:11 +0000, RGrew176 wrote:

From: "Clarence Bell"

One of the most common discourtesies that I see in the Chesapeake Bay is sail
boaters under power with sails up in a dead calm wind demanding the right of
way because they can only make 6 kts after they turn in front of the "stand-on"
vessel.

A sail boat with sail up but under power is considered a power boat until the
engine is shut down and they are under sail only. It is a commonly used ploy
here on the Great Lakes. Needless to say when passing a sail boat I try not to
rock the boat.

ALthough I can't speak for all sailboaters, and certainly I've seen my share of
discourteous ones (if you think you're yelled at as a powerboater, you should
try asserting your "stand-on" rights under sail!"STARBOARD!!!!"), there are some
Very Valid reasons to be motoring with sail up.

1. The sail reduces roll and makes the ride much more comfortable.

2. You get a bit more speed/power if there is some wind. This is usually
referred to as "motorsailing": using power partly from the wind, but still
regarded as a powerboat in the Regs.

3. If engine fails, your sail is already up to give you whatever speed you can
get from it. VERY useful if your engine fails when you're in front of a
freighter...(and if you NEVER crossed in front of a freighter, you'd never sail
anywhere in Vancouver Hbr - you just have to make sure you're well out of the
way by the time they get there)

So, sailboats often motor with their sail(s) up. Doesn't mean they're trying to
"put one over" on you and pretend their a sailboat.

Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36