Building a wooden WW dory
 

Hi Folks,

After a long trip down the Main and Lower Salmon, I've become (somewhat)
interested in building a wooden dory with compartments for whitewater.

Woodworking skills are probably not a problem-- I build reproduction period
furniture. Still:

1. Any good plan recommendations?
2. Can one buy super-sturdy plywood (I keep thinking red oak might be the
thing to build the thing out of)?
3. How much space do you need to do this?
4. Roughly how much would it cost?

Scotty, I know you're out there and the expert. Here's a chance for us to
make up. I promise-- no politics, only boats! ;-)

Best,

Chuck

Building a wooden WW dory
 

Charles Pezeshki wrote:
After a long trip down the Main and Lower Salmon, I've become
(somewhat) interested in building a wooden dory with compartments for
whitewater.

I hope somebody will pop up with white-water dory experience, but failing
that (or as another source of info) ... wooden boat magazine is dashed full
of dory building info. If you're lucky a local library will have back
issues. Otherwise:

http://www.woodenboat.com/

Building a wooden WW dory
 

"Lefty" writes:

Charles Pezeshki wrote:
After a long trip down the Main and Lower Salmon, I've become
(somewhat) interested in building a wooden dory with compartments for
whitewater.

I hope somebody will pop up with white-water dory experience,

See "The Doing of the Thing". Great book.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Building a wooden WW dory
 

In article , Charles Pezeshki
writes:

After a long trip down the Main and Lower Salmon, I've become (somewhat)
interested in building a wooden dory with compartments for whitewater.

Woodworking skills are probably not a problem-- I build reproduction period
furniture. Still:

1. Any good plan recommendations?
2. Can one buy super-sturdy plywood (I keep thinking red oak might be the
thing to build the thing out of)?
3. How much space do you need to do this?
4. Roughly how much would it cost?

Scotty, I know you're out there and the expert. Here's a chance for us to
make up. I promise-- no politics, only boats! ;-)


There are many here who I think would enjoy learning more about the
craft of Dory building. Another couple of years on the raft and the seams
will need to be rewelded. Moving into a wood boat would be a logical step.

Question are a Dory and Drift boat the same thing? And is a MacKenzie just a
specific brand? Are there any commercial products are these all the creations
of specialized builders?


Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA.
RBP Clique member # 86.

The best adventure is yet to come.

Building a wooden WW dory
 

Blakely LaCroix wrote:

Question are a Dory and Drift boat the same thing? And is a MacKenzie
just a specific brand? Are there any commercial products are these
all the creations of specialized builders?

A dory is any smallish hard-hulled boat generally rowed by one person.
They were originally for fishing at sea and often have a curved hull
and keel. A drift boat is more for rivers, shortened, widened, and
with a flat bottom. The McKenzie (named after a river in Oregon) is
a style of drift boat that can handle moderate rapids and is good for
backferrying and dropping anchor while fishing.

http://www.spirainternational.com/hp_driftboats.html

I agree with Chuck: it would be great to have a dory. They hold lots
more gear than a raft, more conveniently in compartments, and are more
of a challenge to row because they are less forgiving than inflatables.
If you hit a rock, it could destroy the boat, so more skill is needed.
Nothing like a challenge.

The amazing thing is that when Powell's men rowed down the Grand Canyon,
Galloway style (rowing while facing downstream) was not yet discovered.
They went backwards!

Building a wooden WW dory
 

Charles Pezeshki wrote in message ...
Hi Folks,

After a long trip down the Main and Lower Salmon, I've become (somewhat)
interested in building a wooden dory with compartments for whitewater.

Woodworking skills are probably not a problem-- I build reproduction period
furniture. Still:

1. Any good plan recommendations?
2. Can one buy super-sturdy plywood (I keep thinking red oak might be the
thing to build the thing out of)?
3. How much space do you need to do this?
4. Roughly how much would it cost?

Scotty, I know you're out there and the expert. Here's a chance for us to
make up. I promise-- no politics, only boats! ;-)

Best,

Chuck

Welllll..... I am still here for the boats so here goes. You will find
a lot of great information at http://www.riverstouch.com/. These are
folks who have studied these boats for many years, finally putting out
plans and reproductions for boats which were actually built and used
on the Rogue and McKenzie rivers in the northwest. Another great link
is http://www.raysriverdories.com/, another long time study of these
boats.

You really need to come on over to my house (rec.boats.builders). We
can answer these and any other questions before you even start
construction, and of course, even you can call me if you have boat
building questions, I am always at the shop and love talking boats. Of
course Charles... you don't get my 800 number ;)

I will probably start another fight here but I would never buy any
plans from someone who steals plans or drawings and puts them into a
cad program, sells them as "his" plans, then pays someone to build the
first boat and send him photos so he can post them on his page as
"his" design. One guy in particular mentioned in another post has been
doing this for years and gotten pretty rich in the process. He stole
all of Paysons boats, then did my site, then did the links on my site,
etc, etc, etc. Now he seems to be an international expert in
everything from kayaks to prams to large motor and even the really
specialized drift boats of which we speak. He did the Dories a few
weeks after doing all the boats on my site. A couple years later he
now he has a great "international" website, all built on others
experience... I would avoid that guy like a plague.. Hey, I am a
computer wiz and could zip out line drawings all day and sell them, I
could of done this many years ago but I have a little more respect for
the builders. I have watched several of my peers get rich doing this
over the years, but it is just not my style. Just a note. Make sure a
designer has actually built and tested a boat before you buy any plans
from them.. If you start with the two links I suggested you will get
in contact with folks who really know these boats.

River dories are indeed a strange lot and you should make sure you are
building the right tool. The double enders which look real sweet are
not great motorboats, or rowboats either. If you are not using them on
moving water they would probably be a waste of wood, that is why there
are few in my area. Remember, in a drift boat when you want to go you
stop rowing, when you want to stop, you row... That is the biggest
difference. Being very efficient boats for this use make them pretty
useless for about anything else. Just something to consider before
spending that much time and money on any boat. Now there are some
Rogue river dory skiffs that would handle a motor and row a little
better, you should really talk to Ray at Rays river and decide if one
of these boats will really be the right tool for your needs.. nothing
worse than a boat that does not do what you wanted it to do...

Scotty from SmallBoats.com

Building a wooden WW dory
 

(Blakely LaCroix) wrote in message ...
In article , Charles Pezeshki
writes:

After a long trip down the Main and Lower Salmon, I've become (somewhat)
interested in building a wooden dory with compartments for whitewater.

Woodworking skills are probably not a problem-- I build reproduction period
furniture. Still:

1. Any good plan recommendations?
2. Can one buy super-sturdy plywood (I keep thinking red oak might be the
thing to build the thing out of)?
3. How much space do you need to do this?
4. Roughly how much would it cost?


There are many good plywood products out there now to use.. Super
Sturdy is not necessarily good, but the designer should be able to
tell you what to use based on the design. To build a decent size dory
you would probably need at least a shop of 25 by 25 feet, on the other
hand you can just work in your driveway as I do, with all of my tools
in the garage. Figure the boat at 16-20 feet and 6 feet wide, figure
out how much room you have around it to work. These boats can be built
outside and with the advances in adhesives, weather can be dealt with
accordingly. I am going to rough guess, a McKenzie double ender, of
all good materials, between $3-4000 to build, again, ask the designer.


Scotty, I know you're out there and the expert. Here's a chance for us to
make up. I promise-- no politics, only boats! ;-)


There are many here who I think would enjoy learning more about the
craft of Dory building. Another couple of years on the raft and the seams
will need to be rewelded. Moving into a wood boat would be a logical step.

Question are a Dory and Drift boat the same thing? And is a MacKenzie just a
specific brand? Are there any commercial products are these all the creations
of specialized builders?

"A dory is a flat-bottomed boat, with sides and bottom planked
lengthwise and with no keel structure other that the bottom planking".
(John Gardner, "The Dory Book")
Usually when someone says dory this type of boat comes to mind... The
double enders of the north east are the most common designs but dories
have evolved as they moved west across the US. There are probably
three main types of dories out there. You have the typical Swampscott
type of dory from the East coast used primarily as fishing boats,
tenders, and later as life boats for the origional "Life guard
service?" (USGG). You have the big specialized life guard dories used
on the west coast and then you have the inland "Drift boats" which we
are talking about here. All three really pretty different boats and
then you add the variants of flat transoms for motors and you have
more confusion. When you hear of the Rouge or McKenzie boats these are
boats that were built and used on the Rouge and McKenzie rivers. Over
the years these boats have become very tuned to use on these waters. I
don't know the rivers but by looking at the designs, the Rogue must be
a little easier to navigate and power through as the Rogues' have more
flat transoms suited for rowing or motoring where as the McKenzie's
seem to focus on the big high, pointy bow and stern for strictly
drifting. See the links I posted earlier in this thread for some great
examples of both of these boats.

Again I would caution, before building a dory make sure it will be the
right tool for the job. They are beautiful boats:
http://smallboats.com/boats_ggull.htm
I have build a few, the above link was one I build for a lady on the
south shore of Long Island for rowing in the Atlantic. Nice set of
Shaw and Tenneys' and a little varnish, she must be the talk of the
town...
Scotty, The Backyard Renegade.


Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA.
RBP Clique member # 86.

The best adventure is yet to come.

Building a wooden WW dory
 

HI Scotty,

I'm still REALLY in the preliminary phase. That means I'm musing on it, as
I realize that there's a ton o' work involved, and I have to try to figure
out if it's a good expenditure of resources. The time is a small part of
the issue.

The kits I saw out there were in the $3K range, and I was trying to figure
out if I'd be better off just buying plans and then buying raw lumber, or if
I'd be better off just buying a kit. The other thing I'm trying to figure
out is if I'd be better off just buying a raft!

Thanks for the advice. I really do appreciate it. That boat in the link,
while not really what I have in mind, is certainly lovely.

Chuck

in article , Backyard Renegade
at wrote on 8/16/03 6:18 AM:

I am going to rough guess, a McKenzie double ender, of
all good materials, between $3-4000 to build, again, ask the designer.

Building a wooden WW dory
 

HI Scotty,

It's hard for those not in the biz to know who is/isn't stealing plans.

I know that I'd like to know, having no interest in dealing in 'hot' plans.
But there are libel issues involved if someone with money decided to go
after you, so for your own sake, be careful.

Maybe a better tack would be to tell someone the process of figuring out who
has stolen plans.

Chuck

in article , Backyard
Renegade at wrote on 8/16/03 5:31 AM:

I will probably start another fight here but I would never buy any
plans from someone who steals plans or drawings and puts them into a
cad program, sells them as "his" plans, then pays someone to build the
first boat and send him photos so he can post them on his page as
"his" design. One guy in particular mentioned in another post has been
doing this for years and gotten pretty rich in the process.

Building a wooden WW dory
 

Hi Scotty,

Upon re-reading your post, that's what I'm going to do. Fergit the listing
of names.

Best,

Chuckin article , Backyard
Renegade at wrote on 8/16/03 5:31 AM:

If you start with the two links I suggested you will get
in contact with folks who really know these boats.

Building a wooden WW dory
 

John Gardner's "Dory Book" is the classic reference, available in many
public libraries.

For a simple approach to dory geometry look at the writings of Barend
Migchelsen of Dorval, Quebec. His writings have been serialized at
www.duckworksmagazine.com. The recent stuff is covered by the new fee to
view articles but some of his older stuff can be viewed for free. He also
sells booklets of his dory geometry on his website the address of which I
can't remember.

(I used Barend's geometry as a starting point for the free skiff design
program on my website but had to revert to analytical geometry for some of the
math for a skiff. The transom throws things off. This summer at the beach
I solved the problem of the concave cut along the bottom edge but have not
put it on the WWW as yet.)


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Building a wooden WW dory
 

Charles Pezeshki wrote in message ...
HI Scotty,

It's hard for those not in the biz to know who is/isn't stealing plans.

I know that I'd like to know, having no interest in dealing in 'hot' plans.
But there are libel issues involved if someone with money decided to go
after you, so for your own sake, be careful.

Maybe a better tack would be to tell someone the process of figuring out who
has stolen plans.

Chuck



Sorry, I am bringing personal opinion in again and the guy of which I
speak did it to me directly and did not even try to hide it... Anyway,
I should explain... I have no problem with taking a hull shape and
reworking it to suit your needs, and face it, there are only so many
logical shapes for boat hulls. The very few boats I have "developed"
all look very much like the boat that have been built for hundreds of
years, until you take a close look. You would notice that I changed
things to suit modern day boating, made allowances for small engines,
etc. The point being, I have developed these hulls by building them
and tweaking them in the "water tank" (CT River) before I sell any
plans. Some of them reworked as many as 5 times until the hull is
correct. My beef is with the guys who grab an old set of popular
mechanics plans, or just draw with a computer something that looks
like something they have seen. Then they put CAD drawings up on the
net and sell them. One guy in particular gave away free plans to
anyone who would build one of the boats and send him completed photos
for his website. It is in my opinion irresponsible to put someones
life in the hands of a hack like this.
Scotty, who will shut up now until the lawyers are all dead...

Building a wooden WW dory
 

In article , Charles Pezeshki
writes:

The kits I saw out there were in the $3K range, and I was trying to figure
out if I'd be better off just buying plans and then buying raw lumber, or if
I'd be better off just buying a kit. The other thing I'm trying to figure
out is if I'd be better off just buying a raft!

Thanks for the advice. I really do appreciate it. That boat in the link,
while not really what I have in mind, is certainly lovely.


Chuck;

A raft is a great idea.

I purchased mine nearly 10 years ago with the idea that we needed
a craft that the whole family could use. It served us well.

Next summer will be our first year with an empty nest. My wife and I
are already planning larger and more extended trips with the raft for next
summer.

We were out today in the raft on one of the local lakes just to help escape
the heat. It always feels good to have a set of oars in my hands. Must be
some connection to a past life.

Blakely



Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA.
RBP Clique member # 86.

The best adventure is yet to come.

Building a wooden WW dory
 

Charles Pezeshki wrote in message ...
HI Scotty,

I'm still REALLY in the preliminary phase. That means I'm musing on it, as
I realize that there's a ton o' work involved, and I have to try to figure
out if it's a good expenditure of resources. The time is a small part of
the issue.

The kits I saw out there were in the $3K range, and I was trying to figure
out if I'd be better off just buying plans and then buying raw lumber, or if
I'd be better off just buying a kit. The other thing I'm trying to figure
out is if I'd be better off just buying a raft!

Charles, I think you especially would enjoy the whole experience of
planning, building, finishing, and then floating a boat of your own
hand. This based on the specific interests and hobbies you have noted
since I have monitored this newsgroup. Of course, I suggest that it is
a life altering experience for anyone who has done it, but I think you
would enjoy the experience... Who knows, maybe you will get addicted
as I have and slow down on that crazy political agenda;)

Personally, i feel there is no reason to "get out" the wood for such a
boat as the folks who build the kits I mentioned do a good job and
when you figure your time just in finding decent wood... $3000 would
probably be well worth the investment to get the kit. You still really
get to "build" the boat, and it allows you to spend more time on fit
and finish. Many of these kit sellers using CNC and such can put out
kits for about the same amount as you finding all the material
yourself.


Thanks for the advice. I really do appreciate it. That boat in the link,
while not really what I have in mind, is certainly lovely.

That boat was a quick knockdown, marine ply seats, all designed for a
very small female to easily load and unload... and for rowing flatter
water. Certainly not the tool for you in the rivers. Completly
different boat. Really showing how many really different types of
boats classify as dories...

Chuck

in article , Backyard Renegade
at wrote on 8/16/03 6:18 AM:

I am going to rough guess, a McKenzie double ender, of
all good materials, between $3-4000 to build, again, ask the designer.

Again, probably cost as much to buy the wood and material as to buy
the whole kit.

Let us know if you build one. Being a rather specialized type of boat
(not for everyone) have only seen photos and such. I have a set of
Roger Fletcher's plans for a 17 foot double ender here and would love
to build it someday, but I would have no place to use it.

Scotty.. still using a crap computer, no easy spellchecker available
now, sorry.

Building a wooden WW dory
 

HI Scotty,

That's good to know. I haven't done ANY pricing, but I figure that in order
to make one of these 'stitch and glue' models, one would probably end up
buying two super-large sheets of marine plywood, no? My suspicion (entirely
speculation) is that such a sheet in the 16' range would cost ~$500, just
going on what I know walnut veneer plywood (another specialty item) goes for
in sheet form. You'd probably need at least 2 of them, and maybe 3.

I've seen dories/drift boats that are obviously cobbled together from
smaller sheets. Not as elegant, but sea/river worthy.

Are my suspicions correct?

Chuck

in article , Backyard
Renegade at wrote on 8/17/03 9:15 AM:

Personally, i feel there is no reason to "get out" the wood for such a
boat as the folks who build the kits I mentioned do a good job and
when you figure your time just in finding decent wood... $3000 would
probably be well worth the investment to get the kit.