On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 12:49:49 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jun 14, 3:38*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 15:07:16 -0400, iBoat wrote:
In article 4789ce48-54a7-4d7a-8dc5-
,
says...

On Jun 14, 2:30 pm, I_am_Tosk wrote:
In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 10:08:51 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jun 14, 1:05 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 09:04:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
Thinking about my wayward dinghy caused me to remember another
wandering object on one of my recent Bahamas trips.
I had finished cooking on the magma grill (spoiled crew demanded warm
mac and cheese) and tried removing the 3/4 full propane canister.
Once removed, it was leaking propane, uh oh. No way this thing is
staying aboard. I cannot leave it on the grill cuz it is choppy and
the grill has to be stowed. After considering various options, I
decided littering was the safest one so I simply threw it overboard
and settled down to do some reading. A bit later, "Thunk, Thunk,
WTF?", I go outside and look down and there's the canister bumping on
the hull so I fished it out with the crab net.
This time, I really heave it far away and go to bed. Yeah, you
guessed right, middle of the night, "Thunk, Thunk", tide had carried
it right back to me.
Realizing I'm gonna have to get serious about this, I pull out the
tide tables and turn on a light eliciting lots of complaints from
sleeping crew but I find the tide will be running out in an hour. So,
I wait up till then and finally get rid of the canister but never did
get back to sleep waiting for the "Thunk, Thunk" again.

Why didn't you just slowly open it up down wind, let it empty, then
tie it up outside overnight?

No wind.

Seems like there would be something. None at all? All night? How about
tying a weight to it and the boat, then opening the valve... it would
sink down current of your boat, bubble along, then you could pull it
back in. I thought boaters were all about creative thinking?

Yeah, take all night to come up with a scheme to get rid of a little
propane gas...... brilliant.

Progressive "thinkers".. How much weight do you suppose it would take to
sink a half full tank? snerk...

--
Team Rowdy Mouse, Banned from the Mall for life!

People on the west coast have no idea how glassy still the Gulf of
Mexico can get. *When holding a leaking canister aboard a boat, time
is critical lest the heavy propane get in your bilge. *Even holding it
over the side leaking could be dangerous. *In this case, safety takes
precedence over not littering.

Let alone the fact that it's heavier than air and will fill a boat cabin
in a heartbeat.

Wow... you guys call yourselves sailors? How about closing up the
boat. Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you gas up? Sheesh...
and I don't know diddly about boats.

Good Gawd, don't be so anal y'all. I take the grill off the stern
rail because if there is any chop it could fall overboard. It was a
very still night but chop can happen in a few minutes.
Getting the canister below surface would not stop it from leaking near
my boat and propane could get aboard. Safety requires you get rid of
it ASAP. Sinking it even "just below the surface" would require
several pounds of weight and unless I want to sacrifice some wrenches,
I cannot think of anything that would sink it and as I just pointed
out, sinking it does not stop it from leaking. BTW, physics says
enough to sink it "just below the surface" is the same as "all the way
to the bottom" at least in shallow water.
Hazard to navigation? WHAT? In a few hours, it will be empty and you
think a small propane canister is a hazard to nav? Be serious.

Sinking it just below the surface doesn't mean it would sink
completely. Ever hear of neutral buoyancy? How is the propane going to
get aboard your boat if it's sitting there bubbling? Do you have holes
in your boat at the water level? If so, you have bigger problems.

I guess you don't have a spare anchor? You could hold it below the
surface on the down current side, and that would take care of all your
fears of propane migrating into the holes in your boat. LOL

I would think I would not want to crash into anything metal. I'm
betting you would be financially responsible for any damage, assuming
they could figure out who dumped it. Also, there would be a fine for
tossing something over? I bet there is.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 13:22:27 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jun 14, 4:12*pm, Richard Casady
wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 12:49:49 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch



wrote:
On Jun 14, 3:38*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 15:07:16 -0400, iBoat wrote:
In article 4789ce48-54a7-4d7a-8dc5-
,
says...

On Jun 14, 2:30 pm, I_am_Tosk wrote:
In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 10:08:51 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jun 14, 1:05 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 09:04:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
Thinking about my wayward dinghy caused me to remember another
wandering object on one of my recent Bahamas trips.
I had finished cooking on the magma grill (spoiled crew demanded warm
mac and cheese) and tried removing the 3/4 full propane canister.
Once removed, it was leaking propane, uh oh. No way this thing is
staying aboard. I cannot leave it on the grill cuz it is choppy and
the grill has to be stowed. After considering various options, I
decided littering was the safest one so I simply threw it overboard
and settled down to do some reading. A bit later, "Thunk, Thunk,
WTF?", I go outside and look down and there's the canister bumping on
the hull so I fished it out with the crab net.
This time, I really heave it far away and go to bed. Yeah, you
guessed right, middle of the night, "Thunk, Thunk", tide had carried
it right back to me.
Realizing I'm gonna have to get serious about this, I pull out the
tide tables and turn on a light eliciting lots of complaints from
sleeping crew but I find the tide will be running out in an hour. So,
I wait up till then and finally get rid of the canister but never did
get back to sleep waiting for the "Thunk, Thunk" again.

Why didn't you just slowly open it up down wind, let it empty, then
tie it up outside overnight?

No wind.

Seems like there would be something. None at all? All night? How about
tying a weight to it and the boat, then opening the valve... it would
sink down current of your boat, bubble along, then you could pull it
back in. I thought boaters were all about creative thinking?

Yeah, take all night to come up with a scheme to get rid of a little
propane gas...... brilliant.

Progressive "thinkers".. How much weight do you suppose it would take to
sink a half full tank? snerk...

--
Team Rowdy Mouse, Banned from the Mall for life!

People on the west coast have no idea how glassy still the Gulf of
Mexico can get. *When holding a leaking canister aboard a boat, time
is critical lest the heavy propane get in your bilge. *Even holding it
over the side leaking could be dangerous. *In this case, safety takes
precedence over not littering.

Let alone the fact that it's heavier than air and will fill a boat cabin
in a heartbeat.

Wow... you guys call yourselves sailors? How about closing up the
boat. Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you gas up? Sheesh...
and I don't know diddly about boats.

Good Gawd, don't be so anal y'all. *I take the grill off the stern
rail because if there is any chop it could fall overboard. *It was a
very still night but chop can happen in a few minutes.
Getting the canister below surface would not stop it from leaking near
my boat and propane could get aboard. *Safety requires you get rid of
it ASAP. *Sinking it even "just below the surface" would require
several pounds of weight and unless I want to sacrifice some wrenches,
I cannot think of anything that would sink it and as I just pointed
out, sinking it does not stop it from leaking. *BTW, physics says
enough to sink it "just below the surface" is the same as "all the way
to the bottom" at least in shallow water.
Hazard to navigation? *WHAT? *In a few hours, it will be empty and you
think a small propane canister is a hazard to nav? *Be serious.

I don't consider it boating, more like cave diving, far too risky, but
they sell hundred mile per hour boats. You would hit with four hundred
times the impact energy at 100 as you would at 5, with, say, a
sailboat. Such a boat might be badly, even fatally, damaged. Less
farfetched, I would not care to pay the possible repairs to the
sterndrive on my starcraft.

Casady

If yer worried about a 16 oz canister, are you more worried about the
logs floating around out there from the rivers?

So, it's ok to toss small stuff like floating metal? Just because
there's one hazard already there, doesn't mean another deliberately
placed is ok.

On Jun 14, 4:53*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 13:22:27 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch



wrote:
On Jun 14, 4:12*pm, Richard Casady
wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 12:49:49 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
On Jun 14, 3:38*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 15:07:16 -0400, iBoat wrote:
In article 4789ce48-54a7-4d7a-8dc5-
,
says...

On Jun 14, 2:30 pm, I_am_Tosk wrote:
In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 10:08:51 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jun 14, 1:05 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 09:04:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
Thinking about my wayward dinghy caused me to remember another
wandering object on one of my recent Bahamas trips.
I had finished cooking on the magma grill (spoiled crew demanded warm
mac and cheese) and tried removing the 3/4 full propane canister.
Once removed, it was leaking propane, uh oh. No way this thing is
staying aboard. I cannot leave it on the grill cuz it is choppy and
the grill has to be stowed. After considering various options, I
decided littering was the safest one so I simply threw it overboard
and settled down to do some reading. A bit later, "Thunk, Thunk,
WTF?", I go outside and look down and there's the canister bumping on
the hull so I fished it out with the crab net.
This time, I really heave it far away and go to bed. Yeah, you
guessed right, middle of the night, "Thunk, Thunk", tide had carried
it right back to me.
Realizing I'm gonna have to get serious about this, I pull out the
tide tables and turn on a light eliciting lots of complaints from
sleeping crew but I find the tide will be running out in an hour. So,
I wait up till then and finally get rid of the canister but never did
get back to sleep waiting for the "Thunk, Thunk" again..

Why didn't you just slowly open it up down wind, let it empty, then
tie it up outside overnight?

No wind.

Seems like there would be something. None at all? All night? How about
tying a weight to it and the boat, then opening the valve.... it would
sink down current of your boat, bubble along, then you could pull it
back in. I thought boaters were all about creative thinking?

Yeah, take all night to come up with a scheme to get rid of a little
propane gas...... brilliant.

Progressive "thinkers".. How much weight do you suppose it would take to
sink a half full tank? snerk...

--
Team Rowdy Mouse, Banned from the Mall for life!

People on the west coast have no idea how glassy still the Gulf of
Mexico can get. *When holding a leaking canister aboard a boat, time
is critical lest the heavy propane get in your bilge. *Even holding it
over the side leaking could be dangerous. *In this case, safety takes
precedence over not littering.

Let alone the fact that it's heavier than air and will fill a boat cabin
in a heartbeat.

Wow... you guys call yourselves sailors? How about closing up the
boat. Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you gas up? Sheesh....
and I don't know diddly about boats.

Good Gawd, don't be so anal y'all. *I take the grill off the stern
rail because if there is any chop it could fall overboard. *It was a
very still night but chop can happen in a few minutes.
Getting the canister below surface would not stop it from leaking near
my boat and propane could get aboard. *Safety requires you get rid of
it ASAP. *Sinking it even "just below the surface" would require
several pounds of weight and unless I want to sacrifice some wrenches,
I cannot think of anything that would sink it and as I just pointed
out, sinking it does not stop it from leaking. *BTW, physics says
enough to sink it "just below the surface" is the same as "all the way
to the bottom" at least in shallow water.
Hazard to navigation? *WHAT? *In a few hours, it will be empty and you
think a small propane canister is a hazard to nav? *Be serious.

I don't consider it boating, more like cave diving, far too risky, but
they sell hundred mile per hour boats. You would hit with four hundred
times the impact energy at 100 as you would at 5, with, say, a
sailboat. Such a boat might be badly, even fatally, damaged. Less
farfetched, I would not care to pay the possible repairs to the
sterndrive on my starcraft.

Casady

If yer worried about a 16 oz canister, are you more worried about the
logs floating around out there from the rivers?

So, it's ok to toss small stuff like floating metal? Just because
there's one hazard already there, doesn't mean another deliberately
placed is ok.

"neutral Buoyancy" simply means the same average density as water.
Putting the object under water will still allow it to release gas
which will rise to the surface. In spite of the propane being higher
density than air, some will diffuse to higher than the transom and
then will sink into the bilge, all basic physics. The hazard to my
boat from this canister was orders of magnitude greater than the
hazard to any other boat from an empty canister.

In article 702e71cd-8f1f-4c1d-b675-
,
says...


Good Gawd, don't be so anal y'all. I take the grill off the stern
rail because if there is any chop it could fall overboard. It was a
very still night but chop can happen in a few minutes.
Getting the canister below surface would not stop it from leaking near
my boat and propane could get aboard. Safety requires you get rid of
it ASAP. Sinking it even "just below the surface" would require
several pounds of weight and unless I want to sacrifice some wrenches,
I cannot think of anything that would sink it and as I just pointed
out, sinking it does not stop it from leaking. BTW, physics says
enough to sink it "just below the surface" is the same as "all the way
to the bottom" at least in shallow water.
Hazard to navigation? WHAT? In a few hours, it will be empty and you
think a small propane canister is a hazard to nav? Be serious.

Too bad you can't say all this with certitude.

On Jun 14, 5:08*pm, Boating All Out wrote:
In article 702e71cd-8f1f-4c1d-b675-
,
says...



Good Gawd, don't be so anal y'all. *I take the grill off the stern
rail because if there is any chop it could fall overboard. *It was a
very still night but chop can happen in a few minutes.
Getting the canister below surface would not stop it from leaking near
my boat and propane could get aboard. *Safety requires you get rid of
it ASAP. *Sinking it even "just below the surface" would require
several pounds of weight and unless I want to sacrifice some wrenches,
I cannot think of anything that would sink it and as I just pointed
out, sinking it does not stop it from leaking. *BTW, physics says
enough to sink it "just below the surface" is the same as "all the way
to the bottom" at least in shallow water.
Hazard to navigation? *WHAT? *In a few hours, it will be empty and you
think a small propane canister is a hazard to nav? *Be serious.

Too bad you can't say all this with certitude.

Here is a thought experiment for you.

DO NOT ACTUALLY DO THIS ( I figured I had to add that warning)

Take a Coleman 16 oz cylinder and push a nail into the threaded part
so that it leaks constantly (ie, the built in valve is jammed open).
Drop it into a children's wadding pool. Wait about an hour (no wind)
and go stand next to said pool and strike your lighter. What will
happen? If one poster here is correct, nothing will happen because:
1. The leaking cylinder is underwater
2. The high density propane cannot reach up to where you strike the
lighter.

In reality what will happen is you will either end up in the hospital
or morgue because being under a few inches of water will not stop the
cylinder from leaking and the propane will produce a cloud centered
above the cylinder. This clouds density will vary radially from the
spot above the tank in the water. At your height, the density will
get to the point where the Oxygen mix is right leading to easier
ignition than if you were next to the water.
A cloud of propane on the water is a bomb waiting to be set off even
by someone 10' above and was a major danger to my boat.
It is absolutely certain that the propane was more danger to me than
the empty cylinder would be to anyone else. Even better, the salt
water will corrode the thin walled cylinder thru in a month and sink
it.

In article 42a60c43-00c3-450a-9e7a-
,
says...


"neutral Buoyancy" simply means the same average density as water.
Putting the object under water will still allow it to release gas
which will rise to the surface. In spite of the propane being higher
density than air, some will diffuse to higher than the transom and
then will sink into the bilge, all basic physics. The hazard to my
boat from this canister was orders of magnitude greater than the
hazard to any other boat from an empty canister.

Stop digging. It's laughable to say a small cannister of slowly leaking
propane bobbing in the sea will blow up your boat.
A mere foot away from the canister the gas will be too dilute to
combust.
A fart is orders of magnitude more likely to ignite than any measure of
gas that gets to your bilge.
You have no certitude here.
Just nav hazard creation.

On Jun 14, 5:25*pm, Boating All Out wrote:
In article 42a60c43-00c3-450a-9e7a-
,
says...



"neutral Buoyancy" simply means the same average density as water.
Putting the object under water will still allow it to release gas
which will rise to the surface. *In spite of the propane being higher
density than air, some will diffuse to higher than the transom and
then will sink into the bilge, all basic physics. *The hazard to my
boat from this canister was orders of magnitude greater than the
hazard to any other boat from an empty canister.

Stop digging. *It's laughable to say a small cannister of slowly leaking
propane bobbing in the sea will blow up your boat.
A mere foot away from the canister the gas will be too dilute to
combust.
A fart is orders of magnitude more likely to ignite than any measure of
gas that gets to your bilge.
You have no certitude here.
Just nav hazard creation.

You do not have much experience with this sort of thing it seems. Do
NOT try it. Combustibility is not a simple matter of concentration
because 100% propane will not ignite whereas if you dilute it, the
probability of ignition goes waaaaay up. At higher values it goes
down again. Being heavier than air is the major danger to boats
because it settles to the lowest point where it can reach a higher
density than it would be at deck height.
The same is true to a lesser degree of gasoline vapors. Ever seen
someone throw a lit cigarette into a bucket of gas, nothing happens
(nearly 100% concentration) whereas if he held the cig above the
container...............This is why boats have bilge blowers.

On Jun 14, 5:33*pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Jun 14, 5:25*pm, Boating All Out wrote:



In article 42a60c43-00c3-450a-9e7a-
,
says...

"neutral Buoyancy" simply means the same average density as water.
Putting the object under water will still allow it to release gas
which will rise to the surface. *In spite of the propane being higher
density than air, some will diffuse to higher than the transom and
then will sink into the bilge, all basic physics. *The hazard to my
boat from this canister was orders of magnitude greater than the
hazard to any other boat from an empty canister.

Stop digging. *It's laughable to say a small cannister of slowly leaking
propane bobbing in the sea will blow up your boat.
A mere foot away from the canister the gas will be too dilute to
combust.
A fart is orders of magnitude more likely to ignite than any measure of
gas that gets to your bilge.
You have no certitude here.
Just nav hazard creation.

You do not have much experience with this sort of thing it seems. *Do
NOT try it. *Combustibility is not a simple matter of concentration
because 100% propane will not ignite whereas if you dilute it, the
probability of ignition goes waaaaay up. *At higher values it goes
down again. *Being heavier than air is the major danger to boats
because it settles to the lowest point where it can reach a higher
density than it would be at deck height.
The same is true to a lesser degree of gasoline vapors. *Ever seen
someone throw a lit cigarette into a bucket of gas, nothing happens
(nearly 100% concentration) whereas if he held the cig above the
container...............This is why boats have bilge blowers.

BTW, never store a propane cylinder below deck or in the cabin even if
it is "empty". I do not allow them to stay on my boat when I am not
aboard and when aboard I keep them in a mesh bag off the stern.

On Jun 14, 5:22*pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Jun 14, 4:12*pm, Richard Casady
wrote:





On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 12:49:49 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
On Jun 14, 3:38*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 15:07:16 -0400, iBoat wrote:
In article 4789ce48-54a7-4d7a-8dc5-
,
says...

On Jun 14, 2:30 pm, I_am_Tosk wrote:
In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 10:08:51 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Jun 14, 1:05 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 09:04:40 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
Thinking about my wayward dinghy caused me to remember another
wandering object on one of my recent Bahamas trips.
I had finished cooking on the magma grill (spoiled crew demanded warm
mac and cheese) and tried removing the 3/4 full propane canister.
Once removed, it was leaking propane, uh oh. No way this thing is
staying aboard. I cannot leave it on the grill cuz it is choppy and
the grill has to be stowed. After considering various options, I
decided littering was the safest one so I simply threw it overboard
and settled down to do some reading. A bit later, "Thunk, Thunk,
WTF?", I go outside and look down and there's the canister bumping on
the hull so I fished it out with the crab net.
This time, I really heave it far away and go to bed. Yeah, you
guessed right, middle of the night, "Thunk, Thunk", tide had carried
it right back to me.
Realizing I'm gonna have to get serious about this, I pull out the
tide tables and turn on a light eliciting lots of complaints from
sleeping crew but I find the tide will be running out in an hour. So,
I wait up till then and finally get rid of the canister but never did
get back to sleep waiting for the "Thunk, Thunk" again.

Why didn't you just slowly open it up down wind, let it empty, then
tie it up outside overnight?

No wind.

Seems like there would be something. None at all? All night? How about
tying a weight to it and the boat, then opening the valve.... it would
sink down current of your boat, bubble along, then you could pull it
back in. I thought boaters were all about creative thinking?

Yeah, take all night to come up with a scheme to get rid of a little
propane gas...... brilliant.

Progressive "thinkers".. How much weight do you suppose it would take to
sink a half full tank? snerk...

--
Team Rowdy Mouse, Banned from the Mall for life!

People on the west coast have no idea how glassy still the Gulf of
Mexico can get. *When holding a leaking canister aboard a boat, time
is critical lest the heavy propane get in your bilge. *Even holding it
over the side leaking could be dangerous. *In this case, safety takes
precedence over not littering.

Let alone the fact that it's heavier than air and will fill a boat cabin
in a heartbeat.

Wow... you guys call yourselves sailors? How about closing up the
boat. Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you gas up? Sheesh....
and I don't know diddly about boats.

Good Gawd, don't be so anal y'all. *I take the grill off the stern
rail because if there is any chop it could fall overboard. *It was a
very still night but chop can happen in a few minutes.
Getting the canister below surface would not stop it from leaking near
my boat and propane could get aboard. *Safety requires you get rid of
it ASAP. *Sinking it even "just below the surface" would require
several pounds of weight and unless I want to sacrifice some wrenches,
I cannot think of anything that would sink it and as I just pointed
out, sinking it does not stop it from leaking. *BTW, physics says
enough to sink it "just below the surface" is the same as "all the way
to the bottom" at least in shallow water.
Hazard to navigation? *WHAT? *In a few hours, it will be empty and you
think a small propane canister is a hazard to nav? *Be serious.

I don't consider it boating, more like cave diving, far too risky, but
they sell hundred mile per hour boats. You would hit with four hundred
times the impact energy at 100 as you would at 5, with, say, a
sailboat. Such a boat might be badly, even fatally, damaged. Less
farfetched, I would not care to pay the possible repairs to the
sterndrive on my starcraft.

Casady

If yer worried about a 16 oz canister, are you more worried about the
logs floating around out there from the rivers?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

16 oz canister??
I envisioned a 10 lb propane tank...... the kind we carried on my
buddy's Mirage 33.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 15:41:40 -0400, Harryk
wrote:

All of Froggy's boating mishaps present to me as the ongoing saga of a
boat owner who ignores maintenance or who juryrigs maintenance so as to
get it done as cheaply as possible, without a thought to the longevity
or propriety of a repair.

But he's out cruising the Bahamas so he's doing something right.