Anyone know the differences in the two grading systems?

A friend has just come back from South Africa where (as a complete
rafting novice) he was running Grade 5. The kayakers supporting the
raft all went off to do a Grade 6 run in the afternoon. The numbers
seem a bit high to me.

Any ideas? Is a grade 6 raft-rapid actually a grade 4/5 kayak-run?

Zatt.

ZattleBone wrote:
Anyone know the differences in the two grading systems?

A friend has just come back from South Africa where (as a complete
rafting novice) he was running Grade 5. The kayakers supporting the
raft all went off to do a Grade 6 run in the afternoon. The numbers
seem a bit high to me.

Any ideas? Is a grade 6 raft-rapid actually a grade 4/5 kayak-run?

Having seen a couple of rafting company adverts in different countries
and having heard a couple of the raft guides talk to their customers, I
got the impression that they overrate the difficulty rather routinely.
Of course, they do seem to want to impress their customers... My guess
is that helps raise the tip.

Then again, there are some raft guides who run some pretty impressive
stuff with inexperienced customers, some of the big rapids on the Grand
Canyon and Zambezi come to mind.

--
Wilko van den Bergh
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Hopefully, the river is rated based on it's features, characteristics,
and dangers. What craft you are in has no bearing on the river. It
doesn't care what you may fall out of.

Many novice rafters can safely enjoy a Class (Grade) 4 run, while some
novice kayakers may have their hands full on Class 3. That is not a
hard and fast rule, but an over simplification. Some runs greatly
favor kayaks because of size. Large boats don't always fit where
small boats fit.

I don't think there are many Class six runs being done routinely.

(Wilko, I hope I am correct in assuming that European standards are
substantially the same as U.S.?)


Just my $.02 (while I try to help breathe some life back into RBP)


-Dan


On 11 Sep 2003 02:11:48 -0700, (ZattleBone)
wrote:

Anyone know the differences in the two grading systems?

A friend has just come back from South Africa where (as a complete
rafting novice) he was running Grade 5. The kayakers supporting the
raft all went off to do a Grade 6 run in the afternoon. The numbers
seem a bit high to me.

Any ideas? Is a grade 6 raft-rapid actually a grade 4/5 kayak-run?

Zatt.

Dan Valleskey wrote:

I don't think there are many Class six runs being done routinely.

Same story here.

(Wilko, I hope I am correct in assuming that European standards are
substantially the same as U.S.?)

From what I've seen in the U.S., I would say so. Maybe the comparison
with western U.S. rivers/ratings fits the type of rivers here better,
though.

--
Wilko van den Bergh
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

"Wilko" wrote in message
news:1fg8b.37557$tK5.4769674@zonnet-reader-1...

Dan Valleskey wrote:

I don't think there are many Class six runs being done routinely.

Same story here.

(Wilko, I hope I am correct in assuming that European standards are
substantially the same as U.S.?)

From what I've seen in the U.S., I would say so. Maybe the comparison
with western U.S. rivers/ratings fits the type of rivers here better,
though.


The interesting thing about western ratings is that there is no numerical
classification for 'unrunnable'. Class 10 often is described as "an
inexperienced boatman in a good quality boat has less than a 50-50 chance of
making it right-side up." I like the 10-step breakdown, too, since it
clears up some of that vast grey area between Class III and Class IV on the
traditional grading scale.

--riverman

(and it sounds a lot like Spinal Tap, too.)

Could just be that the locals have decided to make up their own grading
system so that they sound cool, or possibly just lied.

There are a few examples of rivers that are not graded on the
international scale (Grand Canyon 1-10?) but as far as I know people
have converted these to real terms by now.

I have seen some discrepancy over raft vs kayak grading when I've been
in the US, or at least that is our assumption. Some guidebooks have
different grades to others and the best idea we could come up with was
that sometimes big stoppers will look more difficult to kayaks and
narrow technical sections will look more difficult to rafts. This does
not mean that grade 4 in a rafting guide always equates to grade 5 in a
kayak or anything, just that where we have noticed differences of
opinions it depended on which type of craft would find the rapid easier
or harder.

It could also be that the river(s) in question were last graded 20 years
ago when a lot of stuff was overgraded due to thought of consequences. I
fully agree that danger should not be factored into the grade, but
almost every guidebook does so at some time, I've even found myself
using it in my reasoning and I think it's wrong!

There is also the possibility that the outfit is a bit suspect and does
regularly run grade 5 with beginners and the guides do head off and run
grade 6 every day after work - people doing, or claiming to do, that
sort of thing are usually complete dopeheads who have long since
forgotten what grading really means anyway. They probably also aren't
very useful as safety boaters!

There is a fairly good case for expanding the grading system but no-one
will actually make a stand and attempt to do it.

Anyway Zatt, will you be bringing some beginners to Scotland so I can
show them some nice grade 7 stuff????

JIM

ZattleBone wrote:

Anyone know the differences in the two grading systems?

A friend has just come back from South Africa where (as a complete
rafting novice) he was running Grade 5. The kayakers supporting the
raft all went off to do a Grade 6 run in the afternoon. The numbers
seem a bit high to me.

Any ideas? Is a grade 6 raft-rapid actually a grade 4/5 kayak-run?

Zatt.

"Jim Wallis" wrote in message
news:vpjsjb.qgf.ln@Eskdale...

There is a fairly good case for expanding the grading system but no-one
will actually make a stand and attempt to do it.


Jim,

Can you imagine the legal liability that would expose you to? Just think,
someone gets injured or dies on a river that you had just graded as a Class
3. All of a sudden the plaintiffs are trying to make it out as a Class 6 and
of course the victim would never have run it except for the fact that you
graded it as something they could do.

I think that's why we won't see any attempts at grading things in the
future.

Steve Holtzman
Southern CA

Seakayaker wrote:

Can you imagine the legal liability that would expose you to? Just think,
someone gets injured or dies on a river that you had just graded as a Class
3. All of a sudden the plaintiffs are trying to make it out as a Class 6 and
of course the victim would never have run it except for the fact that you
graded it as something they could do.

I think that's why we won't see any attempts at grading things in the
future.

In a particular lawyer infested bit of the US on a very bad day
possibly, but there's been no sign of anyone doing that with climbing
guides here which are every bit as open to the same problems. The
problem with doing it isn't legal action, but knowing you need to do a
good job and not being prepared to make do with a bad one.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

I was going to reply but then I thought there was something familiar
about that name - is this the so called lawyer troll that has wrecked
r.b.p? It would explain why his post is irrelevant.

Seakayaker wrote:

"Jim Wallis" wrote in message
news:vpjsjb.qgf.ln@Eskdale...


There is a fairly good case for expanding the grading system but no-one
will actually make a stand and attempt to do it.



Jim,

Can you imagine the legal liability that would expose you to? Just think,
someone gets injured or dies on a river that you had just graded as a Class
3. All of a sudden the plaintiffs are trying to make it out as a Class 6 and
of course the victim would never have run it except for the fact that you
graded it as something they could do.

I think that's why we won't see any attempts at grading things in the
future.

Steve Holtzman
Southern CA

Lets face it the grading thing is not an objective thing but it should
be.

The grading system is closed and this is its problem. Either the grade
system has to be open ended and so we have grade 7 8 ..And as equipment
and skills improve higher or we have to regularly down grade the rapids
because they are easier now than when they were originally graded many
when the paddlers were in canvas boats. This was tried several years ago
but the general boating public ignored it.

In reality it does not matter because once you get to what is currently
accepted as grade 4 in a kayak then you know what you are doing and can
make an informed choice. Grade 5 is what you are aspiring to and once
you get to that level then you have no real worries about what the grade
is but what the water level is!
--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk