So I went out and demo'd some CLC boats on Wednesday. What a wonderful
experience. I'm really looking forward to getting one of these boats
and beginning the building process. I was hoping that my demo would
help me decide for certain that I wanted a single versus the tandem, but
the sport tandem was such a great ride for me that I decided that I
would go ahead and get it. Now I get the privelege of starting to think
about my customizations. I've been reading some web pages that show a
lot of really cool hints for the build and nice customizations such as
artwork and names etc.

As, I was saying, I've decided on the sport tandem which is 22' long and
remarkably easy to control (in calm seas) by myself. I was concerned
that paddling it alone would be very difficult for me, as I'm a novice
paddler, but during the test, it felt great. I will be taking some
classes once I have completed the boat, so I can learn how to roll the
thing (yes it can be done apparently) and in worst case scenarios how to
re-enter in deep water safely. Any suggestions anyone has on classes,
instructors, or just general boat building would be more than welcome.

Wish me luck.


bkr

How it handles on flat water is nearly irrelevant. What you need to know is
if you can handle it in rough conditions should you get caught in them. Now
is the time to find that out, not when you're in the middle of a squall or
thunderstorm. Most of CLC's designs are wide and stable, providing the
illusion of security to a new paddler, especially on flat water. They don't
handle the same when it's windy and rough. Do what you like, but I have to
state one more time that buying a tandem for solo use is a REALLY bad idea.
Do yourself a favor and ask this question on the Kayak Building Bulletin
Board and the Kayaking Technique Bulletin Board at www.kayakforum.com and
get some additional opinions.

I understand your enthusiasm to start building (my third boat is nearly
finished), but now is not the time to rush.

--
Regards

Brian



bkr wrote:

So I went out and demo'd some CLC boats on Wednesday. What a wonderful
experience. I'm really looking forward to getting one of these boats
and beginning the building process. I was hoping that my demo would
help me decide for certain that I wanted a single versus the tandem, but
the sport tandem was such a great ride for me that I decided that I
would go ahead and get it. Now I get the privelege of starting to think
about my customizations. I've been reading some web pages that show a
lot of really cool hints for the build and nice customizations such as
artwork and names etc.

As, I was saying, I've decided on the sport tandem which is 22' long and
remarkably easy to control (in calm seas) by myself. I was concerned
that paddling it alone would be very difficult for me, as I'm a novice
paddler, but during the test, it felt great. I will be taking some
classes once I have completed the boat, so I can learn how to roll the
thing (yes it can be done apparently) and in worst case scenarios how to
re-enter in deep water safely. Any suggestions anyone has on classes,
instructors, or just general boat building would be more than welcome.

Wish me luck.

bkr

Brian Nystrom wrote:
How it handles on flat water is nearly irrelevant. What you need to know is
if you can handle it in rough conditions should you get caught in them. Now
is the time to find that out, not when you're in the middle of a squall or
thunderstorm. Most of CLC's designs are wide and stable, providing the
illusion of security to a new paddler, especially on flat water. They don't
handle the same when it's windy and rough. Do what you like, but I have to
state one more time that buying a tandem for solo use is a REALLY bad idea.
Do yourself a favor and ask this question on the Kayak Building Bulletin
Board and the Kayaking Technique Bulletin Board at www.kayakforum.com and
get some additional opinions.

I understand your enthusiasm to start building (my third boat is nearly
finished), but now is not the time to rush.

--
Regards

Brian


Brian,

Thanks for the advice. After 6 months I don't feel I am rushing but I
am still a bit wary of how this boat will perform solo in rougher seas.
I have discussed the issue with a few people (not too many solo tandem
drivers I've "met") and got some mixed opinions. Most people wouldn't
recommend it to me as a novice but said it isn't much worse if you plan
ahead during building and provide yourself good interior rigging for
ballast purposes in the front cockpit. I thought that was a good idea,
but I plan on testing the boats out again in the next couple weeks,
hopefully in some choppier waters. The problem with this is CLC doesn't
demo boats in rough seas. They demo the boats in protected areas, and
if the weather is too rough they cancel and reschedule the demos.
Personally, I don't blame them, but it makes it difficult to determine
how the boat will handle in different conditions.
I'm wondering what you mean by the "illusion of security". I recognize
the difference between initial and final stability, but in no way do I
think stability equates to security. That is why I have every intention
of taking some classes on boat rescue and survival before I get too
heavily involved in this project. I can of course, not substitute
classes for experience, and I appreciate your posts and helpful comments
to me on this forum. I'll do some more asking around at the kayakforum
and see what kind of response I get.

bkr

bkr wrote:

Brian Nystrom wrote:
How it handles on flat water is nearly irrelevant. What you need to know is
if you can handle it in rough conditions should you get caught in them. Now
is the time to find that out, not when you're in the middle of a squall or
thunderstorm. Most of CLC's designs are wide and stable, providing the
illusion of security to a new paddler, especially on flat water. They don't
handle the same when it's windy and rough. Do what you like, but I have to
state one more time that buying a tandem for solo use is a REALLY bad idea.
Do yourself a favor and ask this question on the Kayak Building Bulletin
Board and the Kayaking Technique Bulletin Board at www.kayakforum.com and
get some additional opinions.

I understand your enthusiasm to start building (my third boat is nearly
finished), but now is not the time to rush.

--
Regards

Brian


Brian,

Thanks for the advice. After 6 months I don't feel I am rushing but I
am still a bit wary of how this boat will perform solo in rougher seas.

Sorry, I didn't realize that you had been looking that long.

I have discussed the issue with a few people (not too many solo tandem
drivers I've "met") and got some mixed opinions. Most people wouldn't
recommend it to me as a novice but said it isn't much worse if you plan
ahead during building and provide yourself good interior rigging for
ballast purposes in the front cockpit.

Ballast would certainly help, but in order to get the boat to trim properly, you
would need ballast equivalent to the weight of another adult paddler. Admittedly,
I've never done it, but the idea of pushing around 150# or more of dead weight
doesn't sound appealing, on several levels.

I thought that was a good idea,
but I plan on testing the boats out again in the next couple weeks,
hopefully in some choppier waters. The problem with this is CLC doesn't
demo boats in rough seas. They demo the boats in protected areas, and
if the weather is too rough they cancel and reschedule the demos.
Personally, I don't blame them, but it makes it difficult to determine
how the boat will handle in different conditions.

Yeah, it's an understandable situation. Their primary concern has to be the safety
of the paddlers trying the boats.

I'm wondering what you mean by the "illusion of security". I recognize
the difference between initial and final stability, but in no way do I
think stability equates to security.

What I meant is that boats that feel very stable on flat water are not generally
the boats you want for rough conditions. Wide boats tend to follow the contours of
the water moreso than narrow boats. In beam waves, a wide boat will be harder to
keep upright, as the hull is more prone to follow the shape of the wave face. This
makes it more difficult to lean the boat into the waves and increases the
likelihood of a capsize to the downwave side. This can be exacerbated by a loose
fit between the paddler and boat, though that it a controllable to some degree by
paddling the cockpit.

That is why I have every intention
of taking some classes on boat rescue and survival before I get too
heavily involved in this project.

Good idea. I would also suggest picking up a copy of "Deep Trouble", which is a
compilation and analysis of sea kayaking accidents. It really puts the risks of sea
kayaking into perspective. I consider it a must-have for a kayaker's library.

I can of course, not substitute
classes for experience, and I appreciate your posts and helpful comments
to me on this forum. I'll do some more asking around at the kayakforum
and see what kind of response I get.

--
Regards

Brian

In response to my post here and a couple of others on kayakforum and the
CLC web site, I got several very helpful (for me anyway) emails from
Brian Nystrom regarding my decision to go with the tandem. I can't say
I'm completely swayed at this point but I definitely have a more
informed idea of why I should consider the singles over a tandem. I'm
reposting parts of the emails here with Brian's permission so that they
can be saved for anyone else who wants this question answered in the future.

Here's the story: I want a kayak for light touring; occasional
weekenders and maybe the rare week long trip, but mostly for cruising
around in. I have a daughter who is 7 and not ready for her own boat
(in my opinion and hers) so I was planning on a tandem. That way I can
paddle it alone with some ballast (so I hear) and she can hop in once in
a while too. I would then also have a boat I can take other people out
in so we woudn't have to rent one. So far the logic seems sound right?
The problem is, I'm a novice paddler and know next to nothing about it
at this point. I've gone out a few times in rented boats and know I
really enjoy it, but I need experience and training. So I demo'd some
boats, liked the tandem I was looking at a lot, on calm water, and
posted here. Following are some of the exchanges I had with Brian,
specifically with regards to paddling with children and alone.


ME:
It is interesting to me that you find a child in the boat a problem.
I haven't heard that one before in all the comments I've had, other than
one fella who suggested I wouldn't be able to reach her. I'm not sure
why I'd need to unless we capsized, but then, I'm inexperienced so
there's probably a lot I haven't thought of. That's why I ask
questions. Do you think it would be an even further hindrance? She is
young but used to doing stuff with me. We've always ridden bikes so
balance isn't an issue and she's been in boats with me before, not to
mention skating and climbing together.
She's active and adventurous but she isn't very big. I think she weighs
about 55 pounds so my thought was to load up the front with any gear or
extra ballast while she's in the boat, give her a short paddle and a
fishing rod she can reach and just let her enjoy the ride on the lake or
wherever. I don't ever anticipate being in "rough" seas with her in the
boat until she is much older. It just isn't worth the danger in my opinion.


Brian's Response:

Here are my concerns:

- Assistance. In a tandem with separate cockpits, you cannot reach her
to assist her in ANY way. Whether it's a case of seasickness,
thirst/hunger, a gear problem, a bee sting or what have you, you cannot
help her when you're out on the water. If she was in a separate boat,
you could pull her alongside and tend to whatever is necessary. If
conditions became rough unexpectedly, you could raft up and you would
both be more stable, plus she could hold onto you for security and comfort.

- Control. Having her weight in the bow would definitely be a benefit in
terms of the handling of the boat in wind. However, she is also in a
position to compromise your ability to control the boat, by
innappropriate paddles stokes and weight shifts. Again, in unexpectedly
difficult conditions, this could be a real problem.

- Rescues. You may know how to get yourself back into the boat (after
practicing, that is), but how well can you get her back in, then
yourself? How would you pump out her cockpit? Trust me, a 7 year old
will not be able to do it alone and you would have a very difficult time
doing it yourself from the water, especially in conditions that caused a
capsize in the first place. Your daughter is completely dependent on you
for her safety. You say you're a beginner and you're putting yourself
into a boat that could be difficult for you to control. If you don't
have complete command, how can she depend on you? Learning paddling
skills is not going to be easy in a tandem kayak paddled solo. It just
seems like you're putting yourself at a serious disadvantage.

- Boredom. Kids like to wander around. Perhaps this is not an issue with
your daughter, but from what I've seen, they have more fun and are less
likely to get cranky if they have some freedom.

Thanks again to Brian and all the others who've helped me by offering
such great input for my questions.

bkr

Just to add to the mix...

My wife and I have a Necky Gannet II. It has one large cockpit. We
don't do any whitewater with it, it is strictly creek and lake puttering
around. We have not done any overnighters but I'm convinced we could
comfortably go for a weekend on it. A week (without access to supplies)
would be a bit of a stretch although that may be because it has been a
long time since we have done week long hiking/boat trips and have gotten
soft.

We use it tandem and solo. The forward seat adjusts back for solo
paddling. My wife also takes up to 3 kids (9, 7, and 4) along although
the 9 yr. old has been using her own boat with a tether lately.

Ed

bkr wrote:
In response to my post here and a couple of others on kayakforum and the
CLC web site, I got several very helpful (for me anyway) emails from
Brian Nystrom regarding my decision to go with the tandem. I can't say
I'm completely swayed at this point but I definitely have a more
informed idea of why I should consider the singles over a tandem. I'm
reposting parts of the emails here with Brian's permission so that they
can be saved for anyone else who wants this question answered in the
future.

Here's the story: I want a kayak for light touring; occasional
weekenders and maybe the rare week long trip, but mostly for cruising
around in. I have a daughter who is 7 and not ready for her own boat
(in my opinion and hers) so I was planning on a tandem. That way I can
paddle it alone with some ballast (so I hear) and she can hop in once in
a while too. I would then also have a boat I can take other people out
in so we woudn't have to rent one. So far the logic seems sound right?
The problem is, I'm a novice paddler and know next to nothing about it
at this point. I've gone out a few times in rented boats and know I
really enjoy it, but I need experience and training. So I demo'd some
boats, liked the tandem I was looking at a lot, on calm water, and
posted here. Following are some of the exchanges I had with Brian,
specifically with regards to paddling with children and alone.


ME:
It is interesting to me that you find a child in the boat a problem.
I haven't heard that one before in all the comments I've had, other than
one fella who suggested I wouldn't be able to reach her. I'm not sure
why I'd need to unless we capsized, but then, I'm inexperienced so
there's probably a lot I haven't thought of. That's why I ask
questions. Do you think it would be an even further hindrance? She is
young but used to doing stuff with me. We've always ridden bikes so
balance isn't an issue and she's been in boats with me before, not to
mention skating and climbing together.
She's active and adventurous but she isn't very big. I think she weighs
about 55 pounds so my thought was to load up the front with any gear or
extra ballast while she's in the boat, give her a short paddle and a
fishing rod she can reach and just let her enjoy the ride on the lake or
wherever. I don't ever anticipate being in "rough" seas with her in the
boat until she is much older. It just isn't worth the danger in my
opinion.


Brian's Response:

Here are my concerns:

- Assistance. In a tandem with separate cockpits, you cannot reach her
to assist her in ANY way. Whether it's a case of seasickness,
thirst/hunger, a gear problem, a bee sting or what have you, you cannot
help her when you're out on the water. If she was in a separate boat,
you could pull her alongside and tend to whatever is necessary. If
conditions became rough unexpectedly, you could raft up and you would
both be more stable, plus she could hold onto you for security and comfort.

- Control. Having her weight in the bow would definitely be a benefit in
terms of the handling of the boat in wind. However, she is also in a
position to compromise your ability to control the boat, by
innappropriate paddles stokes and weight shifts. Again, in unexpectedly
difficult conditions, this could be a real problem.

- Rescues. You may know how to get yourself back into the boat (after
practicing, that is), but how well can you get her back in, then
yourself? How would you pump out her cockpit? Trust me, a 7 year old
will not be able to do it alone and you would have a very difficult time
doing it yourself from the water, especially in conditions that caused a
capsize in the first place. Your daughter is completely dependent on you
for her safety. You say you're a beginner and you're putting yourself
into a boat that could be difficult for you to control. If you don't
have complete command, how can she depend on you? Learning paddling
skills is not going to be easy in a tandem kayak paddled solo. It just
seems like you're putting yourself at a serious disadvantage.

- Boredom. Kids like to wander around. Perhaps this is not an issue with
your daughter, but from what I've seen, they have more fun and are less
likely to get cranky if they have some freedom.

Thanks again to Brian and all the others who've helped me by offering
such great input for my questions.

bkr

"Brian Nystrom" wrote in message
...

Good idea. I would also suggest picking up a copy of "Deep Trouble", which
is a
compilation and analysis of sea kayaking accidents. It really puts the
risks of sea
kayaking into perspective. I consider it a must-have for a kayaker's
library.

In addition to Brian's advice about "Deep Trouble", I would suggest that you
get a copy of Wayne Horodowich's video or DVD "Capsize Recovery and Rescue
Procedures". It is a great review of what you should learn in one of your
first professional courses.

Although I don't have any young children to paddle with, I have to agree
with Brian about how 2 boats would be much better. A good paddling friend
has a 12 year old daughter who has been paddling for a number of years in
her own boat. Although she doesn't roll (yet), she can wet exit and
paddlefloat re-enter in addition to doing an assisted T rescue.

Good luck,

Steve Holtzman
Southern CA

Seakayaker wrote:


In addition to Brian's advice about "Deep Trouble", I would suggest that you
get a copy of Wayne Horodowich's video or DVD "Capsize Recovery and Rescue
Procedures". It is a great review of what you should learn in one of your
first professional courses.

Although I don't have any young children to paddle with, I have to agree
with Brian about how 2 boats would be much better. A good paddling friend
has a 12 year old daughter who has been paddling for a number of years in
her own boat. Although she doesn't roll (yet), she can wet exit and
paddlefloat re-enter in addition to doing an assisted T rescue.

Good luck,

Steve Holtzman
Southern CA



While I agree that texts can useful tool in learning about kayaking, I'd
also say to think through the conditions you will be going out in. And,
use a little common sense. If it looks too rough, it is. That is to
say, if you are not comfortable with the conditions when you set out,
you should assume they will not improve. There is always tomorrow. I
have never taught my kids to roll... I never plan to. I never plan to
be out in conditions where it will be necessary. I've taught them how
to right and climb back in the boats All of our boats have positive
floatation and they know to get back to the boat. They also know a few
of the signals from my SCUBA days... if you are ok, tap your head, if
not, wave your arm. They know to not worry about even their most
precious possession on the boat... And, (after 30 years of not wearing
a life jacket) I have a rule that everyone on the boat must.

Knowing and "training" for the conditions you plan to see is important.
If you are driving across country, learning to drive in a NASCAR race
is going to be of little help... in the same way, if you are kayaking
across a lake, practicing white water maneuvers is not what you need.

Ed

....stuff deleted

Here's the story: I want a kayak for light touring; occasional
weekenders and maybe the rare week long trip, but mostly for cruising
around in. I have a daughter who is 7 and not ready for her own boat
(in my opinion and hers) so I was planning on a tandem. That way I can
paddle it alone with some ballast (so I hear) and she can hop in once in
a while too. I would then also have a boat I can take other people out
in so we woudn't have to rent one. So far the logic seems sound right?
The problem is, I'm a novice paddler and know next to nothing about it
at this point. I've gone out a few times in rented boats and know I
really enjoy it, but I need experience and training. So I demo'd some
boats, liked the tandem I was looking at a lot, on calm water, and
posted here. Following are some of the exchanges I had with Brian,
specifically with regards to paddling with children and alone.



I (generally) agree with Brian. The man knows of what he speaks. I own two
old sea lions (which are getting long in the tooth at the same time the
wallet is getting lean - bad combination). When James is older, he will
certainly be paddling one of these. For now, however, he isn't ready for
paddling on his own.

I purchased a Necky Cruiser II (open cockpit boat) this summer so that I
could take him out on the water and allow him to become familiar with
paddling. Sit-on-tops tend to have annoying handling characteristics, but do
have advantages in that it is easier to maintain contact with each other and
there are fewer safety concerns than with the large (or dual) cockpit boats.
I can drop James off on shore whenever he wishes and still paddle the barge
alone. I've done this is rough and windy conditions and though it was
tiring, it was quite doable. For fun, I overloaded the boat in shallow water
and practiced paddling in windy (20+ MPH) winds. Though I had to brace
often, the boat was surprisingly responsive, possibly because only my head
was above water (grin), and the wind couldn't reach the hull.

Kidding aside, an inexpensive open cockpit tandem may be a decent choice
here. They aren't my favorite breed of boat, but for introducing the young
to paddling, they can have advantages.

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
ink.net...
...stuff deleted

Here's the story: I want a kayak for light touring; occasional
weekenders and maybe the rare week long trip, but mostly for cruising
around in. I have a daughter who is 7 and not ready for her own boat
(in my opinion and hers) so I was planning on a tandem. That way I can
paddle it alone with some ballast (so I hear) and she can hop in once in
a while too. I would then also have a boat I can take other people out
in so we woudn't have to rent one. So far the logic seems sound right?
The problem is, I'm a novice paddler and know next to nothing about it
at this point. I've gone out a few times in rented boats and know I
really enjoy it, but I need experience and training. So I demo'd some
boats, liked the tandem I was looking at a lot, on calm water, and
posted here. Following are some of the exchanges I had with Brian,
specifically with regards to paddling with children and alone.



I (generally) agree with Brian. The man knows of what he speaks. I own two
old sea lions (which are getting long in the tooth at the same time the
wallet is getting lean - bad combination). When James is older, he will
certainly be paddling one of these. For now, however, he isn't ready for
paddling on his own.

I purchased a Necky Cruiser II (open cockpit boat) this summer so that I
could take him out on the water and allow him to become familiar with
paddling. Sit-on-tops tend to have annoying handling characteristics, but
do
have advantages in that it is easier to maintain contact with each other
and
there are fewer safety concerns than with the large (or dual) cockpit
boats.
I can drop James off on shore whenever he wishes and still paddle the
barge
alone. I've done this is rough and windy conditions and though it was
tiring, it was quite doable. For fun, I overloaded the boat in shallow
water
and practiced paddling in windy (20+ MPH) winds. Though I had to brace
often, the boat was surprisingly responsive, possibly because only my head
was above water (grin), and the wind couldn't reach the hull.

Kidding aside, an inexpensive open cockpit tandem may be a decent choice
here. They aren't my favorite breed of boat, but for introducing the young
to paddling, they can have advantages.

I'll speak up and agree with this assessment. I used a 13.5 foot open
cockpit tandem kayak to introduce my kids to boating and paddling with a
kayak paddle on small lagoons, lakes and slow rivers. After a couple years
in the tandem, at around age 7 or 8, they graduated to their own single
kayaks that were designed specifically for kids. I was amazed at how much
they picked up while sitting in the tandem. My son was doing stern rudder
strokes, sweep strokes and even trying to scull stroke sideways on the very
first day in his own boat. I never really gave him a "lesson", he just
picked it up through observation. Both now paddle regularly on Lake
Michigan.

I hated paddling the tandem solo. I had a second boat just for the days I
went out alone and that was what my wife used when the whole family went
out. Having no love for the tandem, I sold it the very day that my son's
single was purchased. It had served its purpose.

Cheers!

DV

See the kids post tandem on Lake Michigan:
http://www.brickgarage.com/HayleyLuke.jpg