Hi

I want to fit a kneeling thwart just aft of centre in my Wenonah Adirondack
kevlar tandem canoe, for soloing.

I realise we'll never be talking perfection here as the boat is failry wide
in the center section. However I don't enjoy soloing the canoe 'backwards'
from the bow seat so much as I don't want to rely on carrying ballast.

I'd ordered the boat with a center seat, which rests on two non adjustable
aluminium angle brackets suspended from the aluminium gunwhales and riveted
in place. Although I jacked the seat up and angled it with wedges, it was
never far back enough in the boat for my liking.

My carpentry skills are somewhat limited and as the boat has slight
tumblehome, the higher I fit the kneeling thwart the more I'll have to shave
off the sides as it gets narrower.

So, in order to minimise the 'chopping and changing', what is a reasonable
starting height for fitting a kneeling thwart, measured from the bottom of
the boat? (The Adi has a fairly flat bottom and hasn't yet oil canned.) I
am 182 cm / 5'11" tall.

Any advice much appreciated.

Lou

"Lou" wrote in message
...
Hi

I want to fit a kneeling thwart just aft of centre in my Wenonah
Adirondack
kevlar tandem canoe, for soloing.
. . .
So, in order to minimise the 'chopping and changing', what is a reasonable
starting height for fitting a kneeling thwart, measured from the bottom of
the boat? (The Adi has a fairly flat bottom and hasn't yet oil canned.)
I
am 182 cm / 5'11" tall.

Lou,

The only answer is to build an adjustable frame you can set on the floor,
use the knee pads you're going to use, and test different heights for
longish periods of time. Furniture designers will tell you that there is no
such thing as 'best' or 'most comfortable' position, The key is to be able
to change among many comfortable and efficient positions.

Unless yours is a play boat, you probably don't want to build knee pockets
to hold you in one position. My preference is a floor pad that lets me move
fore and aft, plant my knees into the chines or closer to the center
depending on the time of day and the water. With all this variability, you
can see it's hard to pick one preferred height. Too, it's hard in winter to
simulate that last of a three or four week trip when you have no cushioning
left on the bony parts of your butt.

For inspiration, you might look at Mad River's new thwart system with the
pivoting, adjustable rake seat.

I've evolved away from the center seat thwart. Partly because it degrades
the structure of the boat, partly because it gets in the way of carrying,
and partly because it gets in the way for poling. I removed the center
thwart of my RX Explorer and replaced it with two, spaced fore and aft. For
solo paddling, I kneel on my pack. For tandem (which for me rarely includes
whitewater), I put back the stock cane seats.

hth,
Fred Klingener

Hi Lou,

There's actually an easier solution.

Your center seat is suspended by two aluminum brackets. You can very
easily re-mount the seat. Unless you really want a kneeling thwart, it
would be easier and probably more comfortable just to shift your seat
around.

What you will need to do this is a drill, a drill bit the size of your
pop-rivets, a pop-rivet gun ($10-$20 at your local hardware store),
some pop rivets (usually comes with the gun), and a hack saw (or
something to cut the bracket)

The following assumes you have aluminum gunwales, but the same
principle holds true for wood.

Look at the rivets which hold your gunwales in place. I believe they
are 3/16", but they might be a different size. You will want to buy
rivets that are the same size, and a drill bit to match. If you have
black trim, don't worry. We-no-nah just sprays plain rivets with black
paint to make black rivets, and you can do the same.

Where your seat is mounted, the rivets which hold your gunwales on
also hold the mounting bracket in place. Drill out all the pop-rivets
on both sides in the section where your seat rests, you don't have to
remove the gunwales, just all the rivets holding in that seat bracket.
It should be 4 or 5.

With the rivets out, push down on the seat. It should pop out,
brackets and all. Remove the seat from the brackets.

Find where you would like the seat re-mounted. If necessary remove
more gunwale rivets in that area.

If you want the seat mounted higher, trim the bracket at the top
(where the rivet holes are) to the size and angle you want the seat to
rest at.

Mount the brackets by using the existing pop-rivet holes and perhaps
adding a couple extra to help support the frame. When the frame is
where you want it, just drill through the plate at the existing holes,
and add the extra holes when the plate is sitting where it will be
mounted.

Pop-rivet the brackets in place. If you want the rivets black, I take
a Q-tip and use it like a little paint brush, it even gets inside the
hole on the rivet.

Re-mount the seat. You will probably need to trim the sides of the
seat a little, especially if you move it back. Re-drill new mounting
holes, and you are good to go.

This is all a lot easier than it sounds, and should take all of 20
minutes.

If you have any questions, please feel free to e-mail me and I can
send you some pictures of the process. I'm about to remount the seat
on a Royalex Rendezvous (it is too far forward), so the pictures will
be of that, but the process is the same.

As for determining the height, that's such a personal preference I
doubt anyone can give you a precise measurement. On kneeling thwarts I
have seen them up flush with the gunwales, and on 4" drops. It is
whatever is comfortable for the paddler.

If you want a thwart instead of the seat, you can still use the
brackets you have and trim them down. It will be a very solid mount.

Eric

Lou wrote:

So, in order to minimise the 'chopping and changing', what is a reasonable
starting height for fitting a kneeling thwart,


As others have offered, this is highly dependent on your own situation.
Are you 6'7" or only 5'2"? What is your build? What is your "stamina
level"? Are you constantly in heavy, demanding, Class III & IV waters or
only during brief spurts? How long are your sessions between
resting/orienteering/portaging? All of these will have an effect. There
is no one size, shape, or placement that's *best* even for a single
person who always has precisely the same load & balance points at all
times (never happens). My basic suggestion would be to forget the thwart
entirely - the canoe doesn't need it & you can learn to paddle without
one. Many old-timers do their poling/paddling standing anyway for
quicker reaction, easier shifting of balance point, usually greater
leverage, and overall less commotion within the canoe.

Yours in the north Maine woods,
Pete Hilton (Reg. Me. Guide) aka The Ent



--
Never needlessly disturb a thing at rest.
anon.

"Peter H" wrote in message
...
Lou wrote:

So, in order to minimise the 'chopping and changing', what is a
reasonable
starting height for fitting a kneeling thwart,


As others have offered, this is highly dependent on your own situation.
Are you 6'7" or only 5'2"? What is your build?
. . .
Many old-timers do their poling/paddling standing anyway for
quicker reaction, easier shifting of balance point, usually greater
leverage, and overall less commotion within the canoe.

And mainly because their knees are shot, they don't want to admit it, and
they invent other reasons. :-)

And Pete, you left out out of your list of advantages the far better view of
river conditions ahead.

Fred Klingener

Fred Klingener wrote:

And Pete, you left out out of your list of advantages the far better view of
river conditions ahead.

Fred Klingener



How oblivious of me! That's generally the first reason I give when asked
"Why do you stand up nearly all the time?" It's simple - I can see a
great deal more that way. (Scenery, wildlife, fishing conditions, as
well as river conditions.)

Pete H

--
Never needlessly disturb a thing at rest.
anon.

Insted of a thwart, try a saddle in centerline of canoe, you should be able
to move it back and forth to trim. The saddle can be made of a simple T
wood foam with high density foam padding.
"Lou" wrote in message
...
Hi

I want to fit a kneeling thwart just aft of centre in my Wenonah
Adirondack
kevlar tandem canoe, for soloing.

I realise we'll never be talking perfection here as the boat is failry
wide
in the center section. However I don't enjoy soloing the canoe
'backwards'
from the bow seat so much as I don't want to rely on carrying ballast.

I'd ordered the boat with a center seat, which rests on two non adjustable
aluminium angle brackets suspended from the aluminium gunwhales and
riveted
in place. Although I jacked the seat up and angled it with wedges, it was
never far back enough in the boat for my liking.

My carpentry skills are somewhat limited and as the boat has slight
tumblehome, the higher I fit the kneeling thwart the more I'll have to
shave
off the sides as it gets narrower.

So, in order to minimise the 'chopping and changing', what is a reasonable
starting height for fitting a kneeling thwart, measured from the bottom of
the boat? (The Adi has a fairly flat bottom and hasn't yet oil canned.)
I
am 182 cm / 5'11" tall.

Any advice much appreciated.

Lou