On Sep 5, 6:56*pm, Wayne B wrote:
On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:44:15 -0400, wrote:
I saw the same thing in computer rooms all over town.
58 IBM employees an a 2 story office complex were reduced to 3 guys
working from home.

We are simply getting a lot more work done with fewer workers. That
does not bode well for "labor".

===

Things change and the world has to change with them and adapt.
Ultimately the increased productivity and efficiency is good for the
economy and everyone's standard of living. *It certainly does create
some dislocations along the way for the buggy whip manufacturers
however. *

I spent many years as a manager at a highly automated IT operation.
We still needed people, just not as many, and they did different
things than in the past. * One of our running jokes was something like
this:

How many operations people do you need on third shift?

Answer: *One operator and one dog.

What does the dog do?

He makes sure the operator doesn't touch anything...

The old days of guys running around with racks full of mag tapes,
boxes of line printer paper, *and carts full of punched cards are long
gone. *Truth is that they weren't very good jobs anyway, just a
stepping stone to something better.

There will always be jobs for people with craft skills however:
Machinists, Electronic prototypers, Technicians of all types, Cabinet
makers, Mechanics, Framers, Roofers, Concrete workers, Brick layers,
Stone workers, etc. *Those jobs don't automate very well and are just
about impossible to export.

Then there's people like me. I got tired of being laid off 33 years
ago, so I made my own job. I'm not rich but I haven't been laid off
since.

On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 18:31:59 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

On Sep 5, 6:56*pm, Wayne B wrote:
On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:44:15 -0400, wrote:
I saw the same thing in computer rooms all over town.
58 IBM employees an a 2 story office complex were reduced to 3 guys
working from home.

We are simply getting a lot more work done with fewer workers. That
does not bode well for "labor".

===

Things change and the world has to change with them and adapt.
Ultimately the increased productivity and efficiency is good for the
economy and everyone's standard of living. *It certainly does create
some dislocations along the way for the buggy whip manufacturers
however. *

I spent many years as a manager at a highly automated IT operation.
We still needed people, just not as many, and they did different
things than in the past. * One of our running jokes was something like
this:

How many operations people do you need on third shift?

Answer: *One operator and one dog.

What does the dog do?

He makes sure the operator doesn't touch anything...

The old days of guys running around with racks full of mag tapes,
boxes of line printer paper, *and carts full of punched cards are long
gone. *Truth is that they weren't very good jobs anyway, just a
stepping stone to something better.

There will always be jobs for people with craft skills however:
Machinists, Electronic prototypers, Technicians of all types, Cabinet
makers, Mechanics, Framers, Roofers, Concrete workers, Brick layers,
Stone workers, etc. *Those jobs don't automate very well and are just
about impossible to export.

Then there's people like me. I got tired of being laid off 33 years
ago, so I made my own job. I'm not rich but I haven't been laid off
since.

===

You're a successful entrpreneur, a highly skilled profession by
anyone's estimation, and in exactly the kind of job that can never be
exported. It's hard to believe that someone with a down piece of
farm equipment during harvest season would look overseas for help or
dicker too strongly over price. You're making a good honest living
and providing a valuable service at the same time.

On 05/09/2011 6:24 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 23:26:51 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 19:01:44 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the
fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first
existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the
higher consideration." (Abraham Lincoln)

Have a happy labor day weekend!

I hope that is not true because the US has embarked on a path of
making money without expending any labor for the last 30 years.
A significant part of the GDP is just "money making money" not people
making things. A lot more is "robots making things"
That is why we are in so much trouble.

I agree. There is plenty of capital in the US economy. Unfortunately,
the vast majority of that wealth is held in the hands of a very few,
who are hoarding it.

True. But why invest it? Good chance you will loose it. Union or tax
greed, unstable market, diminishing value of wages who is going to buy
your product? Margins so thin, fleabaggers whining, better off to buy
gold or just part the money.

The stupid way to fix this is print more money. Well, that isn't right
either, that isn't going to fix anything.

Actually it feeds the problem. As inflation devalues peoples incomes
from any source, they then acquire fewer goods. Fewer goods shipped,
means fewer jobs. Yet GDP looks good as costs sneak up. GDP is dollar
of made products, not quantity or a fixed value. The GDP is constantly
being devalued with Bernanke fraud money print.

The hard, but intelligent way to fix the economy is to return that
money back to the hands of the people that would spend it and thereby
fuel the economy.

Yep, money spent by producers really fuels the economy. Doesn't get
siphoned off for government bureaucracy or corruption either.

Find politicians with enough balls to do that and you'll fix the
economy. Otherwise, we'll continue talking foolishness about growing
something that, for lack of nourishment, can't grow.

Back to the basics, force borrowers to borrow real money, stop the
inflationary money print, raise interest rates slowly to raise the
earnings bars and investors will seek the opportunities and employ people.

One could view zero rate interest as admitting the USD isn't worth holding.
--
If it is all Bush's fault, then how come Obama is doing much more of the
same and expecting different results?

On Sep 5, 9:58*pm, Wayne B wrote:
On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 18:31:59 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:









On Sep 5, 6:56 pm, Wayne B wrote:
On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:44:15 -0400, wrote:
I saw the same thing in computer rooms all over town.
58 IBM employees an a 2 story office complex were reduced to 3 guys
working from home.

We are simply getting a lot more work done with fewer workers. That
does not bode well for "labor".

===

Things change and the world has to change with them and adapt.
Ultimately the increased productivity and efficiency is good for the
economy and everyone's standard of living. It certainly does create
some dislocations along the way for the buggy whip manufacturers
however.

I spent many years as a manager at a highly automated IT operation.
We still needed people, just not as many, and they did different
things than in the past. One of our running jokes was something like
this:

How many operations people do you need on third shift?

Answer: One operator and one dog.

What does the dog do?

He makes sure the operator doesn't touch anything...

The old days of guys running around with racks full of mag tapes,
boxes of line printer paper, and carts full of punched cards are long
gone. Truth is that they weren't very good jobs anyway, just a
stepping stone to something better.

There will always be jobs for people with craft skills however:
Machinists, Electronic prototypers, Technicians of all types, Cabinet
makers, Mechanics, Framers, Roofers, Concrete workers, Brick layers,
Stone workers, etc. Those jobs don't automate very well and are just
about impossible to export.

Then there's people like me. I got tired of being laid off 33 years
ago, so I made my own job. I'm not rich but I haven't been laid off
since.

===

You're a successful entrpreneur, a highly skilled profession by
anyone's estimation, and in exactly the kind of job that can never *be
exported. * It's hard to believe that someone with a down piece of
farm equipment during harvest season would look overseas for help or
dicker too strongly over price. *You're making a good honest living
and providing a valuable service at the same time.

Thanks Wayne, I do try, but what gets me is why there's not more
people breaking out on their own instead of complaining because they
supposedly can't find any work.

On 9/6/11 10:07 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 18:31:59 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Then there's people like me. I got tired of being laid off 33 years
ago, so I made my own job. I'm not rich but I haven't been laid off
since.

I ended up doing the same thing and I went an entirely another way.
I knew the computer hardware business was doomed by the mid 60s. They
are not going to pay you much for swapping parts.
I went with the electrical biz.


I went out on my own in the late 1970's when the AAAA ad/pr agency I was
working for was partially sold to a NY buyer who I thought was a shady
operator. Turned out I was right. I had three clients the day
I opened for business, and two of them are still active client. One of
the three is an occasional client. Earned more than $200k my first year,
which was just about what I was earning at the agency as a senior
account exec.



--
I'd much rather be a champion of the powerless than a lickspittle of the
powerful.

In article ,
says...

On 9/6/11 10:07 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 18:31:59 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Then there's people like me. I got tired of being laid off 33 years
ago, so I made my own job. I'm not rich but I haven't been laid off
since.

I ended up doing the same thing and I went an entirely another way.
I knew the computer hardware business was doomed by the mid 60s. They
are not going to pay you much for swapping parts.
I went with the electrical biz.


I went out on my own in the late 1970's when the AAAA ad/pr agency I was
working for was partially sold to a NY buyer who I thought was a shady
operator. Turned out I was right. I had three clients the day
I opened for business, and two of them are still active client. One of
the three is an occasional client. Earned more than $200k my first year,
which was just about what I was earning at the agency as a senior
account exec.

Yeah, everybody believes you.....NOT!

On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 22:53:35 -0600, Canuck57
wrote:

On 05/09/2011 6:24 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 23:26:51 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 19:01:44 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the
fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first
existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the
higher consideration." (Abraham Lincoln)

Have a happy labor day weekend!

I hope that is not true because the US has embarked on a path of
making money without expending any labor for the last 30 years.
A significant part of the GDP is just "money making money" not people
making things. A lot more is "robots making things"
That is why we are in so much trouble.

I agree. There is plenty of capital in the US economy. Unfortunately,
the vast majority of that wealth is held in the hands of a very few,
who are hoarding it.

True. But why invest it? Good chance you will loose it. Union or tax
greed, unstable market, diminishing value of wages who is going to buy
your product? Margins so thin, fleabaggers whining, better off to buy
gold or just part the money.

The stupid way to fix this is print more money. Well, that isn't right
either, that isn't going to fix anything.

Actually it feeds the problem. As inflation devalues peoples incomes
from any source, they then acquire fewer goods. Fewer goods shipped,
means fewer jobs. Yet GDP looks good as costs sneak up. GDP is dollar
of made products, not quantity or a fixed value. The GDP is constantly
being devalued with Bernanke fraud money print.

The hard, but intelligent way to fix the economy is to return that
money back to the hands of the people that would spend it and thereby
fuel the economy.

Yep, money spent by producers really fuels the economy. Doesn't get
siphoned off for government bureaucracy or corruption either.

Find politicians with enough balls to do that and you'll fix the
economy. Otherwise, we'll continue talking foolishness about growing
something that, for lack of nourishment, can't grow.

Back to the basics, force borrowers to borrow real money, stop the
inflationary money print, raise interest rates slowly to raise the
earnings bars and investors will seek the opportunities and employ people.

One could view zero rate interest as admitting the USD isn't worth holding.

One could, but one would have to be an idiot, such as yourself.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2011 16:59:57 -0400, wrote:

I never had a clue that you were this clueless. Tim could be easily
replaced by some Chinese factory producing starters and alternators
for pennies on the dollar. Why do I need a repair when I can buy new
for less?

Because the repair is quicker/cheaper in many cases. No one can
afford to stock sufficient inventory of obscure parts to make them
instantly available, especially when the new part may cost thousands
of dollars or be back ordered. However, a small shop like Tim's,
dedicated to customer service, can offer same day or over night
service in many cases. That's worth a lot to a guy with several
thousand acres of corn or wheat to harvest before he misses the
weather window.

On 06/09/2011 2:59 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 22:58:39 -0400, Wayne B
wrote:

On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 18:31:59 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sep 5, 6:56 pm, Wayne wrote:
On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:44:15 -0400, wrote:
I saw the same thing in computer rooms all over town.
58 IBM employees an a 2 story office complex were reduced to 3 guys
working from home.

We are simply getting a lot more work done with fewer workers. That
does not bode well for "labor".

===

Things change and the world has to change with them and adapt.
Ultimately the increased productivity and efficiency is good for the
economy and everyone's standard of living. It certainly does create
some dislocations along the way for the buggy whip manufacturers
however.

I spent many years as a manager at a highly automated IT operation.
We still needed people, just not as many, and they did different
things than in the past. One of our running jokes was something like
this:

How many operations people do you need on third shift?

Answer: One operator and one dog.

What does the dog do?

He makes sure the operator doesn't touch anything...

The old days of guys running around with racks full of mag tapes,
boxes of line printer paper, and carts full of punched cards are long
gone. Truth is that they weren't very good jobs anyway, just a
stepping stone to something better.

There will always be jobs for people with craft skills however:
Machinists, Electronic prototypers, Technicians of all types, Cabinet
makers, Mechanics, Framers, Roofers, Concrete workers, Brick layers,
Stone workers, etc. Those jobs don't automate very well and are just
about impossible to export.

Then there's people like me. I got tired of being laid off 33 years
ago, so I made my own job. I'm not rich but I haven't been laid off
since.

===

You're a successful entrpreneur, a highly skilled profession by
anyone's estimation, and in exactly the kind of job that can never be
exported. It's hard to believe that someone with a down piece of
farm equipment during harvest season would look overseas for help or
dicker too strongly over price. You're making a good honest living
and providing a valuable service at the same time.

I never had a clue that you were this clueless. Tim could be easily
replaced by some Chinese factory producing starters and alternators
for pennies on the dollar. Why do I need a repair when I can buy new
for less?

I closed one of my businesses years ago because I couldn't run an MRO
facility for less than the cost of cheap new **** from the Pacific rim
flooding into the US.

My employees lost their jobs because:

I had to pay shipping, Chinese companies are apparently paid to ship
by the government.

Either I or my employees had to pay healthcare, the Chinese company or
employees didn't.

My employees had to make a living wage to be able to afford gasoline
to come to work. They didn't belong to the state like the Chinese.

Without (US) governmental intervention, who can compete with that?

Ex-employees? Some of them retrained and now live a life with a much
lower standard of living. Some of them are still unemployed. Some? I
just don't know.

Tim? Really. Make preparations for a forced retirement. I'm not trying
to be negative, I'm just being realistic. Hang in there as long as you
can, just make sure you have a fall-back position.

True but the Chinese government does not pay for shipping. Companies
like Walmart do. So much bull**** about how the Chinese really work it
isn't funny. But they don't have $150/hr long shoreman unions and
incompetent management with a hyper-inflated over cost economic environment.

Lower over all standard of living is about as assured as it gets for
Americans. Too much bull**** and debt-fraud. How many would want life
threatening surgery from a pot smoking union G12 flunky? Fact is the
union and entitlement types have expectations set into an unrealistic
walla land. This includes the 6 digit politicians by the way so I am
not mean the system is corrupt with expectations. Not entirely their
fault either, government fosters hyper-inflated economy as it generates
more bigger government.

But the balloon sprung a leak....

Good advice though, hang on to the good job as long as you can, hoard
money and retire early in Ecuador.

--
First rule of holes: If your in one, don't keep digging.
So in the hole, why do we insanely want more debt?

On 06/09/2011 4:56 PM, Wayne B wrote:
On Tue, 06 Sep 2011 16:59:57 -0400, wrote:

I never had a clue that you were this clueless. Tim could be easily
replaced by some Chinese factory producing starters and alternators
for pennies on the dollar. Why do I need a repair when I can buy new
for less?

Because the repair is quicker/cheaper in many cases. No one can
afford to stock sufficient inventory of obscure parts to make them
instantly available, especially when the new part may cost thousands
of dollars or be back ordered. However, a small shop like Tim's,
dedicated to customer service, can offer same day or over night
service in many cases. That's worth a lot to a guy with several
thousand acres of corn or wheat to harvest before he misses the
weather window.

Agreed. If you can't fix it in 5 minutes, replace it. Because if the
brushes are shot, might as well avoid coming in next week for the
bearings or windings.

--
First rule of holes: If your in one, don't keep digging.
So in the hole, why do we insanely want more debt?