"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the
fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first
existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the
higher consideration." (Abraham Lincoln)

Have a happy labor day weekend!

On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 23:26:51 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 19:01:44 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the
fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first
existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the
higher consideration." (Abraham Lincoln)

Have a happy labor day weekend!

I hope that is not true because the US has embarked on a path of
making money without expending any labor for the last 30 years.
A significant part of the GDP is just "money making money" not people
making things. A lot more is "robots making things"
That is why we are in so much trouble.

Industry accounts for about 25%, services about 75%, of GDP. Services
are "intangible" products. I'm sure if you poke around here, you'll
get more information: http://www.bea.gov/.

On 9/5/2011 12:30 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 23:26:51 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 19:01:44 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the
fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first
existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the
higher consideration." (Abraham Lincoln)

Have a happy labor day weekend!

I hope that is not true because the US has embarked on a path of
making money without expending any labor for the last 30 years.
A significant part of the GDP is just "money making money" not people
making things. A lot more is "robots making things"
That is why we are in so much trouble.

Industry accounts for about 25%, services about 75%, of GDP. Services
are "intangible" products. I'm sure if you poke around here, you'll
get more information: http://www.bea.gov/.

Greg, you hit the nail on the head. DePlume, you are an excellent
Googler. How did we ever manage without you?

On Sep 4, 11:01*pm, Tim wrote:
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the
fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first
existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the
higher consideration." (Abraham Lincoln)

Have a happy labor day weekend!

Same to you Tim...and thank you for your positive post.

On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 23:26:51 -0400, wrote:

A significant part of the GDP is just "money making money" not people
making things. A lot more is "robots making things"

Whether we like it or not, "robots making things" is here to stay.
It's the logical extension of the industrial revolution and will have
just as many socio-economic impacts as the first. With increasing
miniaturization many of today's products could not be built without
robotic assembly.

The real question is who will design, build and service the robots.
That's where the economic power will be, and it will not be done by
the uneducated and technologically illiterate.

On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:44:15 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 11:21:23 -0400, Wayne B
wrote:

On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 23:26:51 -0400, wrote:

A significant part of the GDP is just "money making money" not people
making things. A lot more is "robots making things"

Whether we like it or not, "robots making things" is here to stay.
It's the logical extension of the industrial revolution and will have
just as many socio-economic impacts as the first. With increasing
miniaturization many of today's products could not be built without
robotic assembly.

The real question is who will design, build and service the robots.
That's where the economic power will be, and it will not be done by
the uneducated and technologically illiterate.


The real problem is that 3 or 4 guys can keep a factory full of robots
going that displaced 1000 assembly workers.

The robot itself will be built in Asia.

I got to watch a graphic example of this at the telephone office here
in Naples
There used to be 3 floors of clicky, clacky frames full of relays and
switches. There were a dozen "frame hops" running around stringing
wires to make changes and cleaning relays. There were wire trays
stuffed with copper coming through the wall. That also supported an
office floor of support people.
A month later it was a small console.with one guy sitting there with
his feet on the table drinking coffee. Over in one corner there were a
few racks with a small bundle of fibers coming in. Most of the
"support" was outsourced.

I saw the same thing in computer rooms all over town.
58 IBM employees an a 2 story office complex were reduced to 3 guys
working from home.

We are simply getting a lot more work done with fewer workers. That
does not bode well for "labor".

So, training people for the high-tech jobs, the green jobs, the
infrastructure jobs, that doesn't "bode well" for labor? Nonsense.

On 04/09/2011 8:01 PM, Tim wrote:
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the
fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first
existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the
higher consideration." (Abraham Lincoln)

Have a happy labor day weekend!

Trouble today is capital has no value. Zero rate interest. So no
capital at work. I don't think Abraham Lincoln meant for capitalists to
loose money so labor has jobs, or he would have been a Marxist like Obama.
--
If it is all Bush's fault, then how come Obama is doing much more of the
same and expecting different results?

On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 15:45:34 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 11:10:25 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:44:15 -0400, wrote:

We are simply getting a lot more work done with fewer workers. That
does not bode well for "labor".

So, training people for the high-tech jobs, the green jobs, the
infrastructure jobs, that doesn't "bode well" for labor? Nonsense.

Training people for jobs that do not exist is not going to suddenly
make the jobs appear.

Please show me where I said "suddenly." So, you don't believe in the
future, and thus we shouldn't plan for it?

There is not much money in "fixing" robots and the controller is going
to be a souped up PC. Not much to fix there either.

Uh huh. So, maybe we can get some undocumented workers to do it, since
you don't want to.

Basically this business has been reduced to cutting open a box with
chinese writing on it and plugging in a part. You don't make much
money doing that and you don't need a lot of training.

Current design criteria is to make a machine that doesn't need much
maintenance and when it fails you replace FRUs, you don't "fix" it?
How many car mechanics do you see these days? Have you even seen a TV
repair shop?
There used to be at least one mechanic in every gas station and a TV
shop in every strip mall. Those jobs are gone. That is just a
microcosm of what is happening everywhere.

Not where I live. I also, however, don't think the solution is "a
mechanic in every station."

What is a "green job"? Cutting lawns? I suppose that will still be
around.
My wife put an ad on Craigs List for 2 $15/.hr "handy man" jobs. She
had over 1000 responses.

Look it up yourself.

We need an immediate, short term job solution on the order of
infrastructure jobs and make-work projects. This will have a highly
stimulative effect on the economy, and other jobs will open up in
support of that. Take the newly opened oil fields in Nebraska. Lots of
secondary jobs have been generated. While it won't solve our energy
problems of using too much oil, it's certainly boosting the local
economy.

On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 14:39:12 -0600, Canuck57
wrote:

On 04/09/2011 8:01 PM, Tim wrote:
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the
fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first
existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the
higher consideration." (Abraham Lincoln)

Have a happy labor day weekend!

Trouble today is capital has no value. Zero rate interest. So no
capital at work. I don't think Abraham Lincoln meant for capitalists to
loose money so labor has jobs, or he would have been a Marxist like Obama.

Trouble is that you're too stupid to understand basic economics.

Obama = Marxist, Nazi, in cahoots with big business, born in Kenya (or
is it Australia?), a Muslim/Christian extremist, and yes, you're an
idiot.

On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:44:15 -0400, wrote:

I saw the same thing in computer rooms all over town.
58 IBM employees an a 2 story office complex were reduced to 3 guys
working from home.

We are simply getting a lot more work done with fewer workers. That
does not bode well for "labor".

===


Things change and the world has to change with them and adapt.
Ultimately the increased productivity and efficiency is good for the
economy and everyone's standard of living. It certainly does create
some dislocations along the way for the buggy whip manufacturers
however.

I spent many years as a manager at a highly automated IT operation.
We still needed people, just not as many, and they did different
things than in the past. One of our running jokes was something like
this:

How many operations people do you need on third shift?

Answer: One operator and one dog.

What does the dog do?

He makes sure the operator doesn't touch anything...

The old days of guys running around with racks full of mag tapes,
boxes of line printer paper, and carts full of punched cards are long
gone. Truth is that they weren't very good jobs anyway, just a
stepping stone to something better.

There will always be jobs for people with craft skills however:
Machinists, Electronic prototypers, Technicians of all types, Cabinet
makers, Mechanics, Framers, Roofers, Concrete workers, Brick layers,
Stone workers, etc. Those jobs don't automate very well and are just
about impossible to export.