Brian Nystrom ) writes:
William R. Watt wrote:

You are overstating the cost here. You don't have to be a "woodworker",
merely a homeowner, to have an electric drill (with sanding disk) and an
electric jigsaw or circular saw (either will do for cutting curves on thin
plywood.

Excuse me, but were we not talking about kits for building strippers?

I am discussing custom designed plywood and "stripper" canoes and kayaks,
and that they cost no more to build than off the shelf plywood and
stripper models. When built at home by an amateur there is a 1/3 savings
in cost of the "stripper" model.


The idea of using a sanding disk on an electric drill is laughable and
you know it. It's the fastest way to destroy your work.

It's the only power sander I use. If someoen esle does not want to use one
then they likely have a difference kind fo power sander in their home.
It's nto the kind of saner but whether you have to buy a new one to build
a boat that affects the cost. Either you hav a sander and don't have to
buy one, or you buy one and use it on all sorts of other projects making
the cost for boatbuilding not worth considering. As I wrote before, all
myu power toos have saved me more money on home repairs than I paid for
them. They are not a net cost item in the home, they are a savings item.


You can cut your own strips as well if you want with a tabel saw.

So what happened to the kit idea? Is that out the window now?

If you want to save more of the labour cost you can cut your own strips.
I think you are out teh window. I can't understand how anyone familiar with
boatbuilding can write what you've been posting in this thread.

That's really funny, considering what boatbuilders actually do rather
than your hypothetical scenario. How many clamps do you figure the
average homeowner has lying about? A block plane? Japanese pull saw?
Chisels? Yes, it's possible to build a boat on a shoestring, but that's
not what most builders do. Again, you know this.

I don't know where you are getting your information about amateur builders
but if you look at the construction photos they put in Interent websites,
and if you read books on matuer boatbuilding, you'll see they build teh
boats as I've described. There is no evidence that they spend a lot of
money on tools. If they build a lot of boats they'll buy some extra tools
but then the cost is spread over a lot of boats, not just one.

As for clamps. That's a myth. You don't need clamps. There are lots of
inexpensive alternatives - screws, wedges, rope, spit rings. Over the
years I've picked up about 10 small clamps of different kinds at second
hand sales for up to $1 each and one or two once in a while.

I do too, but you and I are not typical of the American public. Most
people can barely do more than change a lightbulb. It's sad, but true.

well we aren't disussing the American public, are we? We are discussing
boatbuilding which is not typical of the American public, only of people
who want to build a boat.

As usual, you've come up with somthing totally absurd to try to cloud
the issue. The point is that a person's time is worth something. The
time required for building a strip boat is not inconsequential. If you
consider it recreation (a labor of love), fine. If it takes time that
could be used to earn a living, that's a whole different story.

all recreational boating is recreational. however I wouldn't label all
recreational activity "a labour of love".

One minute you're talking about building in the cheapest manner
possible, then you're talking about the most expensive boats available.
This discussion started out being about saving money by building vs.
buying a COMMERCIAL boat. You keep taking that discussion off on
unrelated tangents.

the home builder gets to use the "cheapest manner possible". that's where
the greatest savings come from. you can build the most expensive
"stripper" boat for 1/3 less than store bought. the more expensive the
store bought boat the more the amateur saves.

What I believe is that you've got very little grasp of reality. You keep
changing the subject in an attempt to avoid admitting that you're wrong.
You can buy commercial boats for less than the cost of a kit plus the
tools and materials necessary to build it.

Amateurs regularly build "stripper" boats for 1/3 less than they can buy
the completed boat off the shelf.

Building takes time, which is
a valuable commodity for most people. You've offered means of "saving
money" which are simply a trade off for increased building time and
difficulty, which makes building even less of a possibility for most
people.

"most people" do not build their own boats. "most people" buy theri boats
built by someone else. they pay more for the other people to build the
boats for them. those who do build theri own "stripper" boats do so for
1/3 less cost that they can buy the bot already built.

Hell, Greenlanders built their boats for centuries using
driftwood and tools made from stone and bone. That was about as cheap as
you can get, but it took a LONG time to build a boat. Perhaps you're
retired and don't consider your time to be worth anything, but most
people value their time.

it took a 2 native people 2 weeks to build a bark canoe, about the same as
it takes someone to build one today. I would assume seal skin kayaks are
similar.

amaterus do not pay themselves to build a boat. nobody pays them. no money
cahnges hands. it costs an amteur 1/3 less to build a "stripper" boat than
to buy the completed boat build by someone else.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! You go off on a tangent
whenever it suits you. What a hypocrite!

The point is that the market for plans and kits is small. People who
produce them apparently don't think that your idea of custom plans and
kits at bargain basement prices is economically feasible. Since they're
in the business and you're not, I'll defer to their wisdom.

I can get the plans for a canoe or kayak for free out of a book at the
public library or off the Internet. You don't need to buy a kit although
you can if you wnat. However, an amateur typically saves 1/3 off the cost
of a "stripper" canoe of kayak buy bulding it himself or herself.

(am I staying on topic here or what? It's not I who have the wandering mind.)

So your first comment was pointless. I built a boat, then another and
another. I plan to build a few more, because I enjoy it and I can build
what I want. So what? I've already stated that I don't do it under the
illusion of saving money.

each time you build a boat you save the money you would have to pay
someone else to build the boat for you. that's no illusion.

When does water pass across the chine? The major flow is along the axis
of the boat, not across it. The water flows around the boat and
underneath it.

the boat pushes water down and out and then sucks it bak in and up. the
greatest resistance comes from pusing the water down and sucking it back
up. as it does so the water crosses the chine, twice.

I don't know how you can consider that "deadwood", as it contributes to
increasing the boat's maximum hull speed. Every high performance boat,
from kayaks to aircraft carriers have relatively plumb bows and sterns
with fine entries. It's certainly not done for aesthetics.

look up "deadwood" in a marine glossary. it's not derogetory. it's a
technical term.

Nystrom, you must have driven several shoolteachers into early retirement.

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While I certainly do not doubt your data analysis capabilities, it nothing to do with people's response to the information in real the world. It is nothing more than what will make you feel good "Technical nonsense, "the majority of people. Consideration of their use of short and wide folding boat, obviously there are more important that other factors, the efficiency of the hull by the army.

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