Hi

I am looking to buy an efficient solo canoe for sit'n switch paddling. I
have narrowed down the choice to a Wenonah Prism or Voyager. I get on
alright with tippy boats so tended to favour the Voyager, which is longer
and narrower at the waterline and generally held to be 'faster' than the
Prism.

Trouble is, I keep getting confused by differences between manufacturer's
claims and 'expert' or dealers' statements about how fast a particular hull
shape is. On their web site Wenonah themselves choose their words carefully
and describe the Voyager as 'quite possibly the fastest solo recreational
racing canoe we make'.

On a German web site http://www.helmi-sport.de/WENONAH/Voyager.html it says
something along the lines "The Voyager is no faster than the Prism, unless
you apply full power: the ultimate speed of displacement hulls with a
rounded bottom has no upper limit."

Are they just stating the ....... obvious? That with the same boat and
paddler weight, the paddler who applies more power will travel faster?
Surely it must be possible to COMPARE how fast two hulls travel if the SAME
paddler applies the SAME amount of power???

I've read about hull friction and that hulls can be more or less efficient
depending on what speed you are paddling at.

I am the wrong side of 60 and not as fit as I have been; if I am looking to
do 5+ mph fla****er cruising, will the Voyager be faster at the same effort
expended or will the increased hull friction of the longer hull backfire on
me and effectively slow me down compared to paddling a Prism?

Sorry this is so long - I'd be grateful for your opinions.

Jack

The only one who can answer your question is -- you.
The speed in which you can paddle a canoe depends on the interaction
between your abilities (power, endurance and paddling skills) and
the actual behavior of the canoe (its resistances and tracking).
Add waves and wind, and the whole thing will get a lot more
complicated. If "efficient solo canoe for sit'n switch paddling"
were my goal, I would instead be looking for sleek designs like a
We-no-nah Advantage or Bell Magic, and plan at least 2-3 paddling
workouts a week, to be able to get this designs to realistically work
at high speeds... If not, you may be going at 5+ mph for an hour or
so, but on the long run you will be paddling much more at lower
speeds, where designs like the Prism or Voyager offer no real
advantage as the We-no-nah Advantage and Bell Magic may do,
especially the Bell Magic (IMO). My advice is to paddle your current
design untill you are very tired, and then right after that,
test-paddle the boats you are interested in... This will tell you
much more about the speeds of these designs, than all our
'intellectual' reasoning about it ;-)

Dirk Barends

Jack wrote:


Hi

I am looking to buy an efficient solo canoe for sit'n switch paddling. I
have narrowed down the choice to a Wenonah Prism or Voyager. I get on
alright with tippy boats so tended to favour the Voyager, which is longer
and narrower at the waterline and generally held to be 'faster' than the
Prism.
Will you settle for 'it depends'?
I've paddled the Voyager a bit, and recently added an Advantage (16'6")
to my garage fleet (along with a J-200, Proboat, MNII, Penobscot 16). I
don't believe there is enough difference in unloaded cruising speed
between the 3 boats to worry about. The differences may be more likely
to emerge in the subtle differences between loaded and unloaded,
different water and wind conditions, etc.

If I look at raw specs, the Voyager is probably a _slightly_ faster boat
- higher prismatic coefficient, longer waterline, probably about the
same wetted area. Not as fast as my J-boat, but no dog. The only time
you are likely to notice the difference in speed is if you really get on
it and start approaching hull speed.

Trouble is, I keep getting confused by differences between manufacturer's
claims and 'expert' or dealers' statements about how fast a particular hull
shape is. On their web site Wenonah themselves choose their words carefully
and describe the Voyager as 'quite possibly the fastest solo recreational
racing canoe we make'.
True, but the horsepower curve starts to look like a hockey stick pretty
quickly.

On a German web site http://www.helmi-sport.de/WENONAH/Voyager.html it says
something along the lines "The Voyager is no faster than the Prism, unless
you apply full power: the ultimate speed of displacement hulls with a
rounded bottom has no upper limit."

Are they just stating the ....... obvious? That with the same boat and
paddler weight, the paddler who applies more power will travel faster?
Surely it must be possible to COMPARE how fast two hulls travel if the SAME
paddler applies the SAME amount of power???

In displacement sailboats, the magic number for comparing speed
potential was based on hull speed, calculated at roughly Hullspeed in
knots =(1.3*((SQRT)LWL)) which means that a 16' boat can go about
5.2Knots regardless of how much power you put to it. (Unless you can
pop it over the bow wave and get it planing).
I've read about hull friction and that hulls can be more or less efficient
depending on what speed you are paddling at.

I am the wrong side of 60 and not as fit as I have been; if I am looking to
do 5+ mph fla****er cruising, will the Voyager be faster at the same effort
expended or will the increased hull friction of the longer hull backfire on
me and effectively slow me down compared to paddling a Prism?
Given that either of the canoes you are looking at are pretty sleek, I
would think that you will get slightly better speed from the Voyager,
but not much. If you can paddle both a Prism and a Voyager over the
same course on similar days or with a rest in between, and use a monitor
to keep your heartrate the same, you might be able to quantify it a
little bit.

There are some other things that make a huge difference in how fast you
can go - setting the seat a little higher will give you better leverage,
but make a tippier boat. Using a top quality carbon paddle like a
Zaveral or Black Bart is much more fun and will let you go faster for a
given amount of calories consumed. Figuring out what works best takes time.

I wouldn't worry about the 'wrong side of 60'. I paddle with a bunch of
old guys that can still kick my butt pretty regularly.

Sorry this is so long - I'd be grateful for your opinions.
My opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it - but I hope it helps.
Paddle both boats, pick the one you like, you'll be happy with either one.

Marsh Jones
New Brighton, MN

Jack

On 9-Jun-2004, Marsh Jones wrote:

knots =(1.3*((SQRT)LWL)) which means that a 16' boat can go about
5.2Knots regardless of how much power you put to it. (Unless you can
pop it over the bow wave and get it planing).

Not really. Olympic class paddlers, as one example, routinely take their
canoes/kayaks well past hull speed without any evidence of planing. Hull
speed isn't a speed limit, it's a point where paddling gets tougher, faster.
It seems to have more relevance to big fat vessels (like keel boats) than
to long, skinny paddle craft.

Mike

"Michael Daly" ) writes:
On 9-Jun-2004, Marsh Jones wrote:

knots =(1.3*((SQRT)LWL)) which means that a 16' boat can go about
5.2Knots regardless of how much power you put to it. (Unless you can
pop it over the bow wave and get it planing).

Not really. Olympic class paddlers, as one example, routinely take their
canoes/kayaks well past hull speed without any evidence of planing. Hull
speed isn't a speed limit, it's a point where paddling gets tougher, faster.
It seems to have more relevance to big fat vessels (like keel boats) than
to long, skinny paddle craft.

the "hull speed" of 1.34 times the square root of the waterline length
only applies to deep displacment hulls. canoes and kayaks are such light
displacement narrow boats that they can go faster with low power. long
narrow hulls like catamarans can also "sail through" their displacement
wave and exceed the 1.34 number with low power.

we were discussing power requirement in another thread. if you multiply
the total resistance in pounds times the speed in knots times 0.003072 you
get the power requirement in horsepower to sustain that speed. a knots is
1.15 times a mile per hour. the problem is finding out what the total
resistance is. there might be sophisticated hull design programs which
will predict more than the wetted surface and wave-making resistances but
I am not aware of any. you will also find differences in computed wetted
surface and volume for the same boat among different hull design programs.
I don't know how precise you can expect to predict teh power requirement
for any boat. Perhaps if you do the calculations for two boats using the
same hull desing software you will get a pretty good comparison. So
comparisons of calculated numbers from the same manufacutuere might be
pretty close. If there are big differences in teh numbers for the boats
you are interested in then there is probably a basis for making a choice.
But if the differences are small I would not trust the nubmers.

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William R. Watt wrote:
"Michael Daly" ) writes:

On 9-Jun-2004, Marsh Jones wrote:


knots =(1.3*((SQRT)LWL)) which means that a 16' boat can go about
5.2Knots regardless of how much power you put to it. (Unless you can
pop it over the bow wave and get it planing).

Not really. Olympic class paddlers, as one example, routinely take their
canoes/kayaks well past hull speed without any evidence of planing. Hull
speed isn't a speed limit, it's a point where paddling gets tougher, faster.
It seems to have more relevance to big fat vessels (like keel boats) than
to long, skinny paddle craft.


the "hull speed" of 1.34 times the square root of the waterline length
only applies to deep displacment hulls. canoes and kayaks are such light
displacement narrow boats that they can go faster with low power. long
narrow hulls like catamarans can also "sail through" their displacement
wave and exceed the 1.34 number with low power.
In context, I did note that the 1.3 number was for displacement sailboat
hulls. From what I observe, there probably is still a similar number at
which the hockey stick of power kicks in.
One of the more interesting facets of canoe design is that you have
another dimension - depth of water - to deal with. I can say with
absolute certainty that two boats with the same basic and loaded
displacement, same length, roughly the same wettted area, but slightly
different lines, can behave very differently when you move into suck
water or the shallows. At progressively higher speeds, it gets harder
and harder to paddle uphill (onto the bow wave), until you break over -
which usually happens in 12-18" of water. Want to watch a canoe fly,
follow a well paddled pro boat as they get into shallow water and hit
the gas.
OTOH, most boats won't get to that point - you simply can't get enough
power out of two mortals to get a typical touring boat 'popped up'.
[snip] William makes great points about design programs and the problems
of computing drag and displacement.

Marsh Jones
Minnesota




w

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"Michael Daly" wrote in message ...
On 9-Jun-2004, Marsh Jones wrote:

knots =(1.3*((SQRT)LWL)) which means that a 16' boat can go about
5.2Knots regardless of how much power you put to it. (Unless you can
pop it over the bow wave and get it planing).

Not really. Olympic class paddlers, as one example, routinely take their
canoes/kayaks well past hull speed without any evidence of planing. Hull
speed isn't a speed limit, it's a point where paddling gets tougher, faster.
It seems to have more relevance to big fat vessels (like keel boats) than
to long, skinny paddle craft.

Mike

Spot on.
Most sail boats will slip through the water with little wake; but you
see an over powered speed boat with 150 HP engines going the same
speed ( Not Planing ) the speed boat is pushing a ton of water and in
spite of pouring much more fuel into the enging, it does not give a
reasonable return for the fuel burned.
Hul speed is an efficiency curve

Hi Jack!

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 07:29:22 +0100, "Jack" wrote:

Hi

I am looking to buy an efficient solo canoe for sit'n switch paddling. I
have narrowed down the choice to a Wenonah Prism or Voyager.

I have a Prism (well, it's the wifes), an Advantage, and a C1W in my
garage, all U/L kevlar skin boats.
I haven't paddled the Voyager, but the Prism isn't particularly fast.
Stable, and pleasant, yes. Fast, no. The Advantage is considerably
faster, and if you are serious about not minding a "wiggly" boat,
check out the C1W. (Probably special order only, but last I checked,
Wenonah would still build one. About the same pricing as the Advantage
IIRC.) My patched and beat-up old C1W will flat out spank the
Advantage on a smooth surface; the gains in choppy conditions are even
greater. Trade-off is that the C1W gets pushed around by the wind a
bit more. In fact, I may be selling the Advantage this summer, as I
really don't take it out much, preferring the C1W in most situations.
Be advised that the Advantage is a wet ride in choppy water.
Hope this helps. Feel free to contact me directly if you'd like.

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

On 9-Jun-2004, Marsh Jones wrote:

knots =(1.3*((SQRT)LWL)) which means that a 16' boat can go about
5.2Knots regardless of how much power you put to it. (Unless you can
pop it over the bow wave and get it planing).
[...]
In context, I did note that the 1.3 number was for displacement sailboat
hulls. From what I observe, there probably is still a similar number at
which the hockey stick of power kicks in.

Well it was a bit misleading - I don't see too many 16' displacement sailboats*.
Hence I assumed you meant a canoe.

Mike
*I saw one from the train yesterday - an old micro-America's-cup hull
that someone's working on in their backyard.

The C-1W is avaliable as a special order boat. It should be the same
price as a Prism, possibly with a mold prep charge added to it ($100
or so).

The Voyager will walk away from a C-1W, in fla****er (I top it out
over 7mph, whereas the C-1W won't quite reach 7 with my fat butt). The
C-1W will turn faster, run bigger water (it is a downriver racing
boat), and is better suited for anything other than going really fast
in a straight line. The Voyager is more stable, but neither would be
my choice for a fishing platform.

The Voyager replaced the Advantage in the We-no-nah lineup, because it
is like an Advantage but better (and yes, Advantage owners can attack
me on that one, but paddle a Voyager before attacking because it
really is a fun boat). The Advantage is still avaliable as a
recreation racing boat (Voyager's specs are illegal for most races).

I really like the Voyager, but like the Advantage it is more limited
than the C-1W for my style of paddling.