Please help! It's like this: I finally go to a bent shaft (an AT4 River)
design after 6+ years of using straight shaft kayak paddles and find myself on
Virginia's Whitetop Laurel (a personal first 'D'!) after extensive rains last
Saturday. Somewhere about halfway through the 13-mile run--a fine choice for
an inaugural run with my new paddle, I might add, or so I thought--I began
feeling a pronounced pain in my right (power side) elbow, concentrating towards
the outside of it. Next morning the pain was so intense I had to lay off of
paddling--ARGGGHH! Vitamin "I" didn't even help, and {unfortunately} there
were no more potent pharmaceticals available. Day after, I paddled the
Nolichucky and by the time I took off my elbow had swollen to about the size of
a tennis ball! I THOUGHT I was gripping it correctly, basically where the
shaft enters the first arm of the "V"...is this wrong? Didn't run into any
trouble on either rivers, didn't hit it on any rocks--what gives? It's a 200cm
paddle but I am 6'4" with fairly long arms...could the paddle still be too
long? Over the years I've actually been steadily shortening my paddle lengths,
I started up around 206cm!! Maybe it's time to go with a 196 or 198?? Any
suggestions are appreciated (and DON'T say "give up paddling", pleeeze!)

Jeff Oxley
Recovering aqua-holic--and relapsing again (full time)
Editor, Blue Ridge River Runners (part time)

Whilst it may not answer your particular problem may I suggest that you
visit the link below. Whilst the information is aimed at parents there
are some guidelines on choosing the right paddle put together by the
GB national coaches which does give some info on adult paddles.
The Lightning is a scaled down K1 racing boat which was designed to
introduce young people into the sport. Tomorrow ( Sunday ) I will be
at a regatta with 60/70 youngsters aged 7 to 12 who are competing in a
national competition introduced three years ago - many have graduated
into youth competition - the future international competitors will come
from this. The enthusiasm has to be experienced - our problem is that we
have more youngsters coming through than we cope with.

http://www.lightnings.co.uk/

Frank Healy


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Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Thanks Frank for the attempt...not much help to me here on this side of the big
pond, though, I'm afraid. Brasca? Lettmann? Not familiar with those brands
over here, and I'm unlikely to make the effort to purchase one...would rather
find out what it is I'm doing wrong witht the AT4 I already have! Anyone have
any other possibilities for solutions? I remember a time when technical
inquiries on RBP were answered with a plethora of (often differing) viewpoints
that the inquiree (that's me) could select or reject as valid or not...anybody
else listening?


Jeff Oxley
Recovering aqua-holic--and relapsing again (full time)
Editor, Blue Ridge River Runners (part time)

See ATs website
www.atpaddles.com

At 6'2", according to their sizing chart, you are betwix and between a
197 and 200 cm for the AT4 River.

Some possibilities:
1) grip is in the wrong place
2) grip is too hard
3) blade angle / grip angle not right / unaccustomed for you.

The grip area is not right where the shaft goes into the paddle... it
is up on the deflected bit - in between the blade neck and the main
straight part of the paddle.

I have found with some AT paddles that the shaft is kind of slick -
waxing up the grip area with some surfboard wax helps make the grip
tackier - which means that you don't have to grip it so hard. The
forearm is what pumps out when you grip too tightly.

And, it could be that, for your anatomy, AT's bent shaft design just
isn't right for you. Bent shafts are basically designed to allieviate
stress in the wrists - if you don't have any kind of history of RSI
type pain in the wrists - then there isn't much reason to go with an
ergo paddle.

I notice with an ergo paddle that some braces (skulling low, can't
recall if it is on the control or the off side) is actually harder to
do with an ergo paddle than with a straight shaft paddle.

The blade area could possibly be getting to you... the AT4 River has a
large blade (800 cm2). the largest (along with the ATX series) of all
of their blades. Sometimes blade area can cause joint stress, esp.
with a fairly stiff (carbon) shaft.

good luck... try the wax as a cheap mitigation attempt.

Ted

On 02 Jul 2004 19:32:41 GMT, (WILDH2PRO) wrote:

Please help! It's like this: I finally go to a bent shaft (an AT4 River)
design after 6+ years of using straight shaft kayak paddles and find myself on
Virginia's Whitetop Laurel (a personal first 'D'!) after extensive rains last
Saturday. Somewhere about halfway through the 13-mile run--a fine choice for
an inaugural run with my new paddle, I might add, or so I thought--I began
feeling a pronounced pain in my right (power side) elbow, concentrating towards
the outside of it. Next morning the pain was so intense I had to lay off of
paddling--ARGGGHH! Vitamin "I" didn't even help, and {unfortunately} there
were no more potent pharmaceticals available. Day after, I paddled the
Nolichucky and by the time I took off my elbow had swollen to about the size of
a tennis ball! I THOUGHT I was gripping it correctly, basically where the
shaft enters the first arm of the "V"...is this wrong? Didn't run into any
trouble on either rivers, didn't hit it on any rocks--what gives? It's a 200cm
paddle but I am 6'4" with fairly long arms...could the paddle still be too
long? Over the years I've actually been steadily shortening my paddle lengths,
I started up around 206cm!! Maybe it's time to go with a 196 or 198?? Any
suggestions are appreciated (and DON'T say "give up paddling", pleeeze!)

Jeff Oxley
Recovering aqua-holic--and relapsing again (full time)
Editor, Blue Ridge River Runners (part time)

Sorry it did not help - it was published to assist the youngsters who
attended a coaching day at a regatta last year. One of the GB coaches
gave a talk to parents and when the website was set up earlier this
year the information was published for their benefit. All the kids
who have access to email subscribe and get a regular newsletter.
May get some results if you put the same query on UK rec boats site.
I suspect that one problem is that you have gone straight in with them.
I have tonight purchased a new set of paddles for my grandaughter and
she will spend several sessions getting used to them before she races.
This will entail sessions with one of our coaching team working with her
and the others who have purchased them. One point that was made at the
coaching day was that many people paddle with what they are given and
that is why so many have difficulties. There is a science to picking
the correct paddle. Will do some research and post a link if I find
anything that may be of help. Meantime I would suggest you revert back
to your old ones for now and enjoy your paddling.

Frank Healy




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Thanks for the replies, Frank and Theodore. Until I figure out what's going on
I've gone back to my straight shaft Werner Freestyle--only prob is, it's
cracked about half way around the circumference, which relegates me to only the
relatively easier rivers (wouldn't want to have my paddle break on a class 4-5
wilderness run!). Thanks again!

Jeff Oxley
Recovering aqua-holic--and relapsing again (full time)
Editor, Blue Ridge River Runners (part time)

(ORIGINAL POST AT BOTTOM)

Another possibility: I visited AT's web site and read with horror Jimmy
Blakeney's product revue of the AT2--in the last paragraph he states:

"So, the two biggest reasons I like this paddle are its comfort/grip (combined
w/the known benefit of a bentshaft) and its smooth feel in the water and quick
stroke rate. It feels very balanced from the moment you pick it up, just make
sure your holding it the right way (low volume part of blade on the bottom). As

I've said before, any decent paddle will work, but the differences are in the
details, sometimes very important details."

So, according to that (very credible) source, I've been using the paddle upside
down?! I've been paddling with the higher area half of the blade (assuming the
ridge where the shaft combines with the blade is the dividing point between the
two) facing down, just like my last paddle, a similarly asymetric Werner
Freestyle! Granted, the review is for the AT2, not the AT4, but I would have
to imagine the designs are similar enough to employ the same paddling style.

Any of you AT paddlers out ther care to weigh in on which side of the blade
goes down? Haven't paddled for a week, and even so, whatever I'd done to my
elbow doesn't seem to be getting any better. No paddling for me for a while, it
looks like...waaaaa!

ORIGINAL POST:
Please help! It's like this: I finally go to a bent shaft (an AT4 River)
design after 6+ years of using straight shaft kayak paddles and find myself on
Virginia's Whitetop Laurel (a personal first 'D'!) after extensive rains last
Saturday. Somewhere about halfway through the 13-mile run--a fine choice for
an inaugural run with my new paddle, I might add, or so I thought--I began
feeling a pronounced pain in my right (power side) elbow, concentrating towards
the outside of it. Next morning the pain was so intense I had to lay off of
paddling--ARGGGHH! Vitamin "I" didn't even help, and {unfortunately} there
were no more potent pharmaceticals available. Day after, I paddled the
Nolichucky and by the time I took off my elbow had swollen to about the size of
a tennis ball! I THOUGHT I was gripping it correctly, basically where the
shaft enters the first arm of the "V"...is this wrong? Didn't run into any
trouble on either rivers, didn't hit it on any rocks--what gives? It's a 200cm
paddle but I am 6'4" with fairly long arms...could the paddle still be too
long? Over the years I've actually been steadily shortening my paddle lengths,
I started up around 206cm!! Maybe it's time to go with a 196 or 198?? Any
suggestions are appreciated (and DON'T say "give up paddling", pleeeze!)


Jeff Oxley
Recovering aqua-holic--and relapsing again (full time)
Editor, Blue Ridge River Runners (part time)

WILDH2PRO wrote:
(ORIGINAL POST AT BOTTOM)

....stuff deleted

So, according to that (very credible) source, I've been using the paddle upside
down?! I've been paddling with the higher area half of the blade (assuming the
ridge where the shaft combines with the blade is the dividing point between the
two) facing down, just like my last paddle, a similarly asymetric Werner
Freestyle! Granted, the review is for the AT2, not the AT4, but I would have
to imagine the designs are similar enough to employ the same paddling style.

Any of you AT paddlers out ther care to weigh in on which side of the blade
goes down? Haven't paddled for a week, and even so, whatever I'd done to my
elbow doesn't seem to be getting any better. No paddling for me for a while, it
looks like...waaaaa!

....stuff deleted

Most paddles I've seen are to be used with the smallest blade surface
down. The reason for this is that you don't need a lot of paddle in the
water to propel a boat. I'm still using the original paddles I purchased
years ago and I find that I put no more than 1/2 the blade in the water
at a time and could easily go to a paddle that uses considerably less
blade. Swimmers (world class freestylers), for example, propel
themselves at close to 5 MPH using a paddle the size of, oh my, your
hand. When training with paddles on their hands, they tend to get
tendonitis due to the excess stress.

Now a boat is considerably larger, but WW paddlers routinely roll their
boat using their hands as well. How much blade is necessary is probably
considerably less than what most of us think. I have taken my son's
shorter, narrower, blade out and found that I liked the response. I tire
less quickly, use less muscle, and have greater turnover (more
revolutions per minute). This is consistent with what is observed in
similar power sports (such as cycling) where a faster cadence and lower
gearing results in a more satisfying and comfortable expenditure of
energy, even though it seems less efficient. Cyclists used to recommend
an RPM of 60-80, but modern thinking puts a comfortable cadence between
80-100, with 120 seen in some individuals. I prefer a cadence of 90-95
and find that I am working too hard at lower cadences.

The end result, however, is the same. It takes X amount of energy to
move a particular hull 1 mile. You can do this with a fat, long paddle,
or a short, skinny one. The number of calories expended is virtually
identical. It comes down to which is more comfortable for the paddler
and which leads to a reduction of stresses on the anatomy.

Rick

Rick wrote:

WILDH2PRO wrote:

...stuff deleted

So, according to that (very credible) source, I've been using the
paddle upside down?! I've been paddling with the higher area half
of the blade (assuming the ridge where the shaft combines with the
blade is the dividing point between the two) facing down, just like
my last paddle, a similarly asymetric Werner Freestyle! Granted,
the review is for the AT2, not the AT4, but I would have to imagine
the designs are similar enough to employ the same paddling style.

...stuff deleted

Most paddles I've seen are to be used with the smallest blade surface
down.

That's true, but...

The reason for this is that you don't need a lot of paddle in
the water to propel a boat.

....that's not the reason. If the issue were simply size, then why not
just use a smaller blade? The reason asymmetic paddles are asymmetric is
the the paddle is usually inserted at some diagonal angle to the water.
If the paddle is symmetric around the shaft line, you have more paddle
in the water below and less above, causing twist. The asymmetry tries to
compensate for that. If you use an asymm paddle upside down (ie, the
longer edge of the blade down), you create more, not less, twist,
thereby requiring a tighter grip on the paddle, thereby mucking up your
tendons.

Didn't you think it was odd that the AT logos were upside down? Or maybe
it didn't have any. Look at the images on the AT site to see proper
orientation. http://www.atpaddle.com/WhitewaterGateway.html

Hope your arms get well soon. Don't rush it.

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

....stuff deleted

That's true, but...

The reason for this is that you don't need a lot of paddle in
the water to propel a boat.

...that's not the reason. If the issue were simply size, then why not
just use a smaller blade? The reason asymmetic paddles are asymmetric is
the the paddle is usually inserted at some diagonal angle to the water.
If the paddle is symmetric around the shaft line, you have more paddle
in the water below and less above, causing twist. The asymmetry tries to
compensate for that. If you use an asymm paddle upside down (ie, the
longer edge of the blade down), you create more, not less, twist,
thereby requiring a tighter grip on the paddle, thereby mucking up your
tendons.


I was not commenting on whether asymmetry will, as you say, reduce
turbulance, vibration, and cavitation. What I was saying was that you
don't need a lot of blade to propel a boat and that placing the wider
edge into the water will tend to result in excess work and stress for
the paddler (the blade, be it small or large, will only move a few
fractions of an inch when pulled against). Since we were discussing the
injury here, I was pointing out that the load of an inverted paddle may
result in undue stress on the paddler.

Rick