On 07 Oct 2003 02:30:36 GMT, Gould 0738 wrote:

That's a terrible story Chuck. What knid of boat was it?

A fish boat with a misplumbed baitwell.

Could have been built by anybody.

The problem with focusing on the brand name is that people might then assume,
"As long as I avoid brand X, I won't have to take many precautions." Could
have, and undoubtedly has happened to boats built by other companies, too.


True enough, but would other companies have treated the owners so badly?

I recently (this July) bought a SeaDoo Utopia 185 from Profile Motorsports
in Gorham, NH. That is an 18 1/2 foot jet boat powered by a Mercury 200
hp. After checking it out at a nearby lake, I started trailering it to
several lakes in Maine. In early August, the engine quit in the middle of
Rangeley Lake. I tried to figure out what was wrong, but had no luck.
Finally (and fortunately) I got a tow back to the launch site. I took the
boat back to the dealer where they discovered that one of the air injectors
had broken off inside one of the cylinders, scored the piston and destroyed
the cylinder head. The dealer insisted on replacing the engine, and while
the work was being done, he loaned me a new Utopia 205, a more expensive
boat than mine. While it left me with a bad taste for Mercury, I was
impressed that Bombardier and their dealer treated me as well as they did.
--

Larry
email is rapp at lmr dot com

True enough, but would other companies have treated the owners so badly?

The mishandling of the situation can be laid at the doorstep of the individual
sales agency. The builder was responsible for the original error, the error in
judgment and
in customer relations was the result of dealing with a particular branch of a
particular business. It's like any other product. If you bought a Buick from a
bad
dealer it reflects most directly on the dealer and not at all on the Buick
factory; but it is likely to leave you, individually, somewhat soured on buying
another Buick. Did the guy who bought a Buick from the dealer on the other side
of town get screwed or get a "bad car" because that dealer's competitor is a
schmuck? Of course not.

Wow, what a story! Now I know why Bayliner is so poorly regarded. What a
piece of crap - both the boat and the company. Thanks for sharing.
--

And sadly enough, we can see why Bayliner *is* poorly regarded- by some.

Always so easily convinced after hearing just one side of a story?

The problem was a combination of 1) a misplumbed boat 2) operator error and
bad judgment 3) dealer error and bad judgment. All of those factors are
evident in the story as told by the consumer, yet people who feel the insecure
need to prove that their particular mass-pro little plastic runabout is vastly
superior to somebody else's little mass-pro runabout seem to concentrate only
on the product portion. Probably 100 major and minor systems on a boat like
that, one is screwed up, and every boat ever built by the same company is a
"piece of crap"?

Hold all products up to that same standard, and you will never be able to buy
anything.

Yep, it was the single "worst case scenario" of a "teething problem" I've
heard. Well, at least where everyone lived to talk about it. Stuff like that
happens with any new boat or product, only problem is, Bayliner has one of
those names that just keep "popping up". They sure didn't need the press
from this gaffe.

It doesn't change my opinion that they're just an entry level boat to get
your feet wet.
(yes I get the joke - I wrote it)

-W



"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...

The problem was a combination of 1) a misplumbed boat 2) operator error
and
bad judgment 3) dealer error and bad judgment.

On 07 Oct 2003 14:42:09 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:
True enough, but would other companies have treated the owners so badly?

The mishandling of the situation can be laid at the doorstep of the individual
sales agency. The builder was responsible for the original error, the error in
judgment and
in customer relations was the result of dealing with a particular branch of a
particular business. It's like any other product. If you bought a Buick from a
bad
dealer it reflects most directly on the dealer and not at all on the Buick
factory; but it is likely to leave you, individually, somewhat soured on buying
another Buick. Did the guy who bought a Buick from the dealer on the other side
of town get screwed or get a "bad car" because that dealer's competitor is a
schmuck? Of course not.
==============================

Manufacturers in ANY business have a responsibility to their customers
to ensure that dealers are chosen carefully and held to high
standards. For most customers the dealer is the only part of the
corporation they ever see.

Manufacturers in ANY business have a responsibility to their customers
to ensure that dealers are chosen carefully and held to high
standards. For most customers the dealer is the only part of the
corporation they ever see.

I agree completely. I have been a (new car) dealer. So, how do we judge a
dealer and his business? By the first high profile incident where some rude
salesperson or incompetant manager makes a critical mistake? Be assured that's
the incident the public *will* hear about. Or, do we take into account the
numbers of folks who go away quietly satisfied and happily return in a few
years to buy a newer or nicer model?

Think of the dumbest or most embarrassing thing you ever did. Would it be fair
to take that incident and use to characterize you, as an individual, for all
time? Or would it be more accurate to note that it was a tragic exception to an
otherwise fairly OK situation?

The builders do have a pretty good handle on who the truly rotten dealers are.
Their info may vary from an unsubstantiated, one-sided horror story flushed
down the Internet by a PO'd buyer with an obvious agenda.

On 07 Oct 2003 16:55:57 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:
The builders do have a pretty good handle on who the truly rotten dealers are.
Their info may vary from an unsubstantiated, one-sided horror story flushed
down the Internet by a PO'd buyer with an obvious agenda.

========================

I have this old fashioned notion that the standard should be somewhere
higher than "truly rotten". Just my humble opinion of course.

I have this old fashioned notion that the standard should be somewhere
higher than "truly rotten". Just my humble opinion of course.


Don't concentrate too heavily on my choice of adjectives. I believe the idea is
sound.

Every person and every business makes mistakes. It is normal to *include* such
mistakes when evaluating overall performance, but not good practice to ignore
all the positive aspects at the same time. If we extended the "negative only"
standard to every other aspect of life, no friendship would survive the first
disagreement, no job would last beyond the first mistake, and no marriage would
endure long beyond the honeymoon.

The individual boat in question was badly plumbed. Because it was *not*
consistent with the builder's standards it did not meet the customer's
reasonable expectations.
How amazing that John Q. Public sees this as a case that somehow *establishes*
that the builder's standard must be to misplumb the live well.

The unhappy customer was bitching *because* the boat was substandard, not
because it was representative of what most people should expect when buying
that make or model.




On 07 Oct 2003 16:55:57 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:
The builders do have a pretty good handle on who the truly rotten dealers
are.
Their info may vary from an unsubstantiated, one-sided horror story flushed
down the Internet by a PO'd buyer with an obvious agenda.

========================

I have this old fashioned notion that the standard should be somewhere
higher than "truly rotten". Just my humble opinion of course.

Wow, what a story! Now I know why Bayliner is so poorly regarded. What a
piece of crap - both the boat and the company. Thanks for sharing.
--


I can't argue with the boat. I'd probably try cutting the sailmans hair
by sticking his head under my prop. As for the the comment about
company, I guess each of use chooses to how much mental capacity we wish
to devote or be devoid of towards fair analysis or jumping to conclusions.

Bob Dimond

As with most other posts by you, well said. Sadly whether it's a 50' Seay
Ray, or a 14' duck boat, we rarely if ever get the quality we see in other
products.

In article ,
(Gould 0738) wrote:

Wow, what a story! Now I know why Bayliner is so poorly regarded. What a
piece of crap - both the boat and the company. Thanks for sharing.
--

And sadly enough, we can see why Bayliner *is* poorly regarded- by some.

Always so easily convinced after hearing just one side of a story?

The problem was a combination of 1) a misplumbed boat 2) operator error and
bad judgment 3) dealer error and bad judgment. All of those factors are
evident in the story as told by the consumer, yet people who feel the insecure
need to prove that their particular mass-pro little plastic runabout is vastly
superior to somebody else's little mass-pro runabout seem to concentrate only
on the product portion. Probably 100 major and minor systems on a boat like
that, one is screwed up, and every boat ever built by the same company is a
"piece of crap"?

Hold all products up to that same standard, and you will never be able to buy
anything.