On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:53:09 -0500, oscar wrote:

What's the point of selling this country's natural resources
overseas? I
hope your answer isn't "making money."

Why?

===

Because it's not strategic in the long run. The energy situation has
to be viewed as a global chess game. He who finishes with the last
oil wins.

On 3/4/2012 10:24 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 10:16 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 9:13 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:18 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 8:08 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:07 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 7:06 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 6:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The
problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric
needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer
period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road
starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this
out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome
where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and
vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these
cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have
talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the
price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can
say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said
they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the
price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....



Your conspiracy theories are so lame they border on hilarious.

His administration has clearly stated that energy prices would go up
under his policy, and that fossil fuel needs to be the price of
Europe
to make Green competitive, what is so hard about that...

And to the "conspiracy", the fact is they had reports like that on
several of the companies they bailed out including Corzine's company
and
Solyndra where it was clear to them the money was not going to
produce a
marketable product, but connected folks had bundled millions to the
election fund.... That is all clear, black and white...


Clear to a paranoid, perhaps.

Or to anybody not paid to follow a party line.... Or anybody who can
read...


I have a feeling your particular brand of paranoia, a brand shared by
many on your side of the political fence, is going to lead your
political party, the GOP, to an unprecedented electoral disaster this
fall. Among other causes, your party is going to be pussy whipped, and
badly.

Delightful.

Oh brother, Harry is back... later Harry...

forgot to say plonk

It's no more effective when you announce it to the world. You don't want
to be accused of mimicing Harry, do you?

--
O M G

On 3/5/2012 9:08 AM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 10:16 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 9:13 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:18 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 8:08 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:07 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 7:06 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 6:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The
problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric
needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer
period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road
starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this
out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome
where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and
vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these
cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have
talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the
price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can
say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said
they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the
price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....



Your conspiracy theories are so lame they border on hilarious.

His administration has clearly stated that energy prices would go up
under his policy, and that fossil fuel needs to be the price of
Europe
to make Green competitive, what is so hard about that...

And to the "conspiracy", the fact is they had reports like that on
several of the companies they bailed out including Corzine's company
and
Solyndra where it was clear to them the money was not going to
produce a
marketable product, but connected folks had bundled millions to the
election fund.... That is all clear, black and white...


Clear to a paranoid, perhaps.

Or to anybody not paid to follow a party line.... Or anybody who can
read...


I have a feeling your particular brand of paranoia, a brand shared by
many on your side of the political fence, is going to lead your
political party, the GOP, to an unprecedented electoral disaster this
fall. Among other causes, your party is going to be pussy whipped, and
badly.

Delightful.

Oh brother, Harry is back... later Harry...


Just an observation on what at this moment seems to be the GOP's future
as a party able to elect a president. It's gotten so far to the right,
so extreme, and has so much hate for so many disparate groups, that even
erudite columnists who are nominal or actual Republicans are predicting
disaster for the party.



That's why Romney the moderate will win.

--
O M G

On 3/5/2012 11:03 AM, Happy John wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:51:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:19:14 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:
On 3/5/12 9:12 AM, Happy John wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:33:12 -0500,
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:20:52 -0500, Happy

wrote:
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 21:57:19 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:


On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 18:48:21 -0500,

wrote:

They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by
the
price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are
spending
is
killing us....

===

I think everyone is affected by the price of gas to one extent
or
another. My suggestion to people who do a lot of driving is
to
get a
more fuel efficient vehicle if at all possible. My truck is
getting
expensive at $80+ per fill up. I find it very strange that we
don't
have the large variety of small, fuel efficient diesels like
they
do
in Europe. My gut feel is that it is yet another
head-in-the-sand
Detroit issue. Last year we drove a full size Volkswagon
diesel
van
through the mountains of France, Switzerland and northern
Italy.
It
had plenty of power, seating for 6 adults, and a huge amount
of
luggage space. Average fuel economy was better than 20 mpg.


Good point. If the VW diesel van had not been withdrawn from
the US
market, that's probably what
we'd have been doing our camping in. Of course, the Mercedes
Sprinter is available, but they ain't
cheap.

What you just bought is way more beterer :-)

Well, it's definitely roomierer!




Lots of room to store a spare 500-gallon fuel tank? :)
Seriously, what sort of mileage do you anticipate? I hope you get
at
least 10 mpg.

I'd be tickled pink if my barge got even close to 10 MPG.

I expect to get about 12-14 with the trailer. I'm considering one of these, but don't know if
they're worthwhile: http://www.bullydog.com/product.php?ID=2 I think I'll start a separate thread to
see if anyone knows anything about them.

And, BTW, I don't think Harry can ask something serious, which is why I responded to you.

If that thing can get your engine to open it's mouth wider it might be
worth the 600 bucks. Otherwise dunno what you can do.

--
O M G

On 3/5/2012 9:47 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In b.com,
says...

On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 08:37:06 -0500, wrote:
In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The
problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric
needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer
period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a
loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road
starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative
energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out
to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome
where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and
vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The
problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price
was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


You are 100% correct, but it just gives the far right wing the
ability
to say SEE, new technology is BAD....


Got your Cheby Volt yet? Didn't think so. Me, being moderate and
slightly right leaning, prefers to wait till the elec car matures and
shakes out most of the bugs. Buyers who must be on the bleeding edge
will pay dearly for the privilage of owning a product that ain't
quite there yet.

By the way, you are far too polarîzed. A common trait among democrats.

What makes you think I'm a democrat, to start with? Also, Scotty and BAR
claim that there will never be an electric car that works!

I don't recall them saying that. Cite?

--
O M G

On 3/4/2012 10:56 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In b.com,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:36:10 -0500, wrote:
In ,
says...


http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...g-the-plug-on-
a-government-funded-electric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it pays to look at
the
world with an open mind...


Has nothing to do with the technology and everything to do with the
sales.

Snake oil doesn't sell well in The good old USA

By the way, you sound a teensy bit more masculine than you did when
you posted as plume. Which leads to the question. Are you male,
female, or something else?

Hint for the misinformed:

I never posted as "plume".

If you stop using phrases that, plume exclusively, uses, you might be
believed.

--
O M G

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 13:33:35 -0500, Oscar wrote:

On 3/5/2012 11:03 AM, Happy John wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:51:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:19:14 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:
On 3/5/12 9:12 AM, Happy John wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:33:12 -0500,
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:20:52 -0500, Happy

wrote:
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 21:57:19 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:


On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 18:48:21 -0500,

wrote:

They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by
the
price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are
spending
is
killing us....

===

I think everyone is affected by the price of gas to one extent
or
another. My suggestion to people who do a lot of driving is
to
get a
more fuel efficient vehicle if at all possible. My truck is
getting
expensive at $80+ per fill up. I find it very strange that we
don't
have the large variety of small, fuel efficient diesels like
they
do
in Europe. My gut feel is that it is yet another
head-in-the-sand
Detroit issue. Last year we drove a full size Volkswagon
diesel
van
through the mountains of France, Switzerland and northern
Italy.
It
had plenty of power, seating for 6 adults, and a huge amount
of
luggage space. Average fuel economy was better than 20 mpg.


Good point. If the VW diesel van had not been withdrawn from
the US
market, that's probably what
we'd have been doing our camping in. Of course, the Mercedes
Sprinter is available, but they ain't
cheap.

What you just bought is way more beterer :-)

Well, it's definitely roomierer!




Lots of room to store a spare 500-gallon fuel tank? :)
Seriously, what sort of mileage do you anticipate? I hope you get
at
least 10 mpg.

I'd be tickled pink if my barge got even close to 10 MPG.

I expect to get about 12-14 with the trailer. I'm considering one of these, but don't know if
they're worthwhile: http://www.bullydog.com/product.php?ID=2 I think I'll start a separate thread to
see if anyone knows anything about them.

And, BTW, I don't think Harry can ask something serious, which is why I responded to you.

If that thing can get your engine to open it's mouth wider it might be
worth the 600 bucks. Otherwise dunno what you can do.

A few of the camping forum guys recommend getting the smog crap off the engine. But, they don't get
specific enough.

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 13:11:08 -0500, Wayne.B wrote:

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:53:09 -0500, oscar wrote:

What's the point of selling this country's natural resources
overseas? I
hope your answer isn't "making money."

Why?

===

Because it's not strategic in the long run. The energy situation has
to be viewed as a global chess game. He who finishes with the last
oil wins.

Litterally - he will be the only one able to power his bombers and tanks.

Are electric bombers and tanks under consideration, I wonder?

In article ,
says...

On 3/5/2012 9:08 AM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 10:16 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 9:13 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:18 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 8:08 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:07 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 7:06 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 6:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The
problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric
needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer
period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road
starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this
out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome
where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and
vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these
cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have
talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the
price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can
say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said
they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the
price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....



Your conspiracy theories are so lame they border on hilarious.

His administration has clearly stated that energy prices would go up
under his policy, and that fossil fuel needs to be the price of
Europe
to make Green competitive, what is so hard about that...

And to the "conspiracy", the fact is they had reports like that on
several of the companies they bailed out including Corzine's company
and
Solyndra where it was clear to them the money was not going to
produce a
marketable product, but connected folks had bundled millions to the
election fund.... That is all clear, black and white...


Clear to a paranoid, perhaps.

Or to anybody not paid to follow a party line.... Or anybody who can
read...


I have a feeling your particular brand of paranoia, a brand shared by
many on your side of the political fence, is going to lead your
political party, the GOP, to an unprecedented electoral disaster this
fall. Among other causes, your party is going to be pussy whipped, and
badly.

Delightful.

Oh brother, Harry is back... later Harry...


Just an observation on what at this moment seems to be the GOP's future
as a party able to elect a president. It's gotten so far to the right,
so extreme, and has so much hate for so many disparate groups, that even
erudite columnists who are nominal or actual Republicans are predicting
disaster for the party.



That's why Romney the moderate will win.

Moderate..... snerk

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 13:33:35 -0500, Oscar wrote:

On 3/5/2012 11:03 AM, Happy John wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:51:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:19:14 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:
On 3/5/12 9:12 AM, Happy John wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:33:12 -0500,
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:20:52 -0500, Happy

wrote:
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 21:57:19 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:


On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 18:48:21 -0500,

wrote:

They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by
the
price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are
spending
is
killing us....

===

I think everyone is affected by the price of gas to one extent
or
another. My suggestion to people who do a lot of driving is
to
get a
more fuel efficient vehicle if at all possible. My truck is
getting
expensive at $80+ per fill up. I find it very strange that we
don't
have the large variety of small, fuel efficient diesels like
they
do
in Europe. My gut feel is that it is yet another
head-in-the-sand
Detroit issue. Last year we drove a full size Volkswagon
diesel
van
through the mountains of France, Switzerland and northern
Italy.
It
had plenty of power, seating for 6 adults, and a huge amount
of
luggage space. Average fuel economy was better than 20 mpg.


Good point. If the VW diesel van had not been withdrawn from
the US
market, that's probably what
we'd have been doing our camping in. Of course, the Mercedes
Sprinter is available, but they ain't
cheap.

What you just bought is way more beterer :-)

Well, it's definitely roomierer!




Lots of room to store a spare 500-gallon fuel tank? :)
Seriously, what sort of mileage do you anticipate? I hope you get
at
least 10 mpg.

I'd be tickled pink if my barge got even close to 10 MPG.

I expect to get about 12-14 with the trailer. I'm considering one of these, but don't know if
they're worthwhile: http://www.bullydog.com/product.php?ID=2 I think I'll start a separate thread to
see if anyone knows anything about them.

And, BTW, I don't think Harry can ask something serious, which is why I responded to you.

If that thing can get your engine to open it's mouth wider it might be
worth the 600 bucks. Otherwise dunno what you can do.

A few of the camping forum guys recommend getting the smog crap off the engine. But, they don't get
specific enough.

You'll void any warranty you have doing that.