In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 09:35:24 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article ,
says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed... snerk Sometimes it pays to look
at the
world with an open mind...

Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE who doesn't pay taxes, will have to
find
another vehicle to force his people who have company cars to
purchase
and drive.

http://gas2.org/2012/02/20/ge-forcin...o-chevy-volts/

===

With all due respect Bert, that sounds like a regurgitation from a
Rush Limbaugh rant. The republican party needs to put a muzzle on
that dude before he alienates every swing voter in the country.

I think the jury is still out on electric cars but any program at
all
which encourages energy independence is a good thing in my
opinion.

Exactly! I don't know why so many far right wingers are against
getting
us off of oil.

The alternatives are not cost effective and you cannot turn the wind
on
when you need more power nor can you turn the Sun on when it is night
time.

And there is a finite quantity of oil.

The amount of oil in North America makes Arabia look like an oil can
compared to a tanker truck.

Or so says FOX. So you think we should go to any length to get it, like
the oil sands of Canada? Isn't this a lovely sight:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...nd-landscapes/

Our whole country could look like that!


______________________________
So it is OK to drill and pollute the Middle East and South America, but not
here? Looks about like an open pit mine for most any mineral in the world.
US included. Most of the Electricity is oil or coal fired plants. So you
get to mine that or drill for that. Electric cars are burning fossil fuel
also, just not at the vehicle.

A well is a pipe in the ground, oil sands are gotten from stripping the
landscape, two entirely different things.

A well is a hole in the ground. A pipe is not needed.

On 3/5/2012 7:12 PM, BAR wrote:
In articleCYWdnYBbwIZ0iMjSnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@earthlink .com, dump-on-
says...

On 3/5/12 2:18 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/5/2012 1:58 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 13:33:35 -0500, wrote:

On 3/5/2012 11:03 AM, Happy John wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:51:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:19:14 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:
On 3/5/12 9:12 AM, Happy John wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:33:12 -0500,
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:20:52 -0500, Happy

wrote:
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 21:57:19 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:


On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 18:48:21 -0500,

wrote:

They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by
the
price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are
spending
is
killing us....

===

I think everyone is affected by the price of gas to one extent
or
another. My suggestion to people who do a lot of driving is
to
get a
more fuel efficient vehicle if at all possible. My truck is
getting
expensive at $80+ per fill up. I find it very strange that we
don't
have the large variety of small, fuel efficient diesels like
they
do
in Europe. My gut feel is that it is yet another
head-in-the-sand
Detroit issue. Last year we drove a full size Volkswagon
diesel
van
through the mountains of France, Switzerland and northern
Italy.
It
had plenty of power, seating for 6 adults, and a huge amount
of
luggage space. Average fuel economy was better than 20 mpg.


Good point. If the VW diesel van had not been withdrawn from
the US
market, that's probably what
we'd have been doing our camping in. Of course, the Mercedes
Sprinter is available, but they ain't
cheap.

What you just bought is way more beterer :-)

Well, it's definitely roomierer!




Lots of room to store a spare 500-gallon fuel tank? :)
Seriously, what sort of mileage do you anticipate? I hope you get
at
least 10 mpg.

I'd be tickled pink if my barge got even close to 10 MPG.

I expect to get about 12-14 with the trailer. I'm considering one
of these, but don't know if
they're worthwhile: http://www.bullydog.com/product.php?ID=2 I
think I'll start a separate thread to
see if anyone knows anything about them.

And, BTW, I don't think Harry can ask something serious, which is
why I responded to you.

If that thing can get your engine to open it's mouth wider it might be
worth the 600 bucks. Otherwise dunno what you can do.

A few of the camping forum guys recommend getting the smog crap off
the engine. But, they don't get
specific enough.

You'll void any warranty you have doing that.

IIRC, it's a federal rap too.... Maybe that's just if a garage does it...

What would Rush do?

Why don't you ask him.

Or you could ask Jon Stewart since what he said was 100 times worse...
or Chris Matthews, or: Well, read for yourself, in the words of a
prominent Liberal...

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/03/0...c-liberal-men/

As far as I am concerned anybody swiping at Rush that didn't go after
Jon Stewart or MSNBC (Like the dem senators and congressmen that go on
those shows all the time and never have the courage to call them out),
you are just another loud mouth with no concern for decency...

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:04:28 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:

It's the speculators and the uncertainty of a modicum of stability
among Muslim states in the Middle East that are raising the prices of
oil.

===

In most cases the "speculator" is the logistics manager for some large
petroleum consumer who is trying to do their job by locking up
sufficient future supplies.

Or the guy who runs a plant that runs on bunker oil. He buys oil futures
contracts to ensure that he has the resources to operate his plant at a
known cost.

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

On 3/5/2012 9:08 AM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 10:16 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 9:13 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:18 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 8:08 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:07 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 7:06 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 6:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The
problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric
needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer
period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road
starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this
out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome
where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and
vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these
cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have
talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the
price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can
say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said
they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the
price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....



Your conspiracy theories are so lame they border on hilarious.

His administration has clearly stated that energy prices would go up
under his policy, and that fossil fuel needs to be the price of
Europe
to make Green competitive, what is so hard about that...

And to the "conspiracy", the fact is they had reports like that on
several of the companies they bailed out including Corzine's company
and
Solyndra where it was clear to them the money was not going to
produce a
marketable product, but connected folks had bundled millions to the
election fund.... That is all clear, black and white...


Clear to a paranoid, perhaps.

Or to anybody not paid to follow a party line.... Or anybody who can
read...


I have a feeling your particular brand of paranoia, a brand shared by
many on your side of the political fence, is going to lead your
political party, the GOP, to an unprecedented electoral disaster this
fall. Among other causes, your party is going to be pussy whipped, and
badly.

Delightful.

Oh brother, Harry is back... later Harry...


Just an observation on what at this moment seems to be the GOP's future
as a party able to elect a president. It's gotten so far to the right,
so extreme, and has so much hate for so many disparate groups, that even
erudite columnists who are nominal or actual Republicans are predicting
disaster for the party.



That's why Romney the moderate will win.

Moderate..... snerk

He's not a conservative.

On 3/5/2012 7:26 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

In , says...

On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....

New technology bad.... FOX tell me.

Never install version 1.0 software.

Never purchase the first versions of anything.

Let someone else work out the bugs.



What is Plum talking about with the "Fox tell me" crap.. The desperate
whining of someone with no platform..

"The difference between Engineers and Technicians is, Engineers can draw
it on paper, it takes a technician to actually make it work...

On 3/5/2012 7:20 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

In b.com,
says...

On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 08:37:06 -0500, wrote:
In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The
problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric
needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer
period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a
loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road
starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative
energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out
to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome
where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and
vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The
problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price
was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


You are 100% correct, but it just gives the far right wing the
ability
to say SEE, new technology is BAD....


Got your Cheby Volt yet? Didn't think so. Me, being moderate and
slightly right leaning, prefers to wait till the elec car matures and
shakes out most of the bugs. Buyers who must be on the bleeding edge
will pay dearly for the privilage of owning a product that ain't
quite there yet.

By the way, you are far too polarîzed. A common trait among democrats.

What makes you think I'm a democrat, to start with? Also, Scotty and BAR
claim that there will never be an electric car that works!

I never said that there will never be an electric car. I have said that
the technology is not available at this time to make them useful. Lion
technology has a heat problem that they haven't been able to solve. You
are lucky that you can take your cellphone and computer on airplanes.
Most bulk shipments of Lion batteries have to be specially packaged or
shipped via surface carrier.

Power density and recycling are the biggest problems with electric cars
at this time. These issues will be resolved in time but, until then
someone else can be on the bleeding edge of this technology.

Plume always lies about what "we" said... It's the only way he can get
attention...

On 3/5/2012 7:31 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

In , says...

On 3/4/2012 1:35 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 09:35:24 -0500, wrote:

In , says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it pays to look at the
world with an open mind...

Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE who doesn't pay taxes, will have to find
another vehicle to force his people who have company cars to purchase
and drive.

http://gas2.org/2012/02/20/ge-forcin...o-chevy-volts/

===

With all due respect Bert, that sounds like a regurgitation from a
Rush Limbaugh rant. The republican party needs to put a muzzle on
that dude before he alienates every swing voter in the country.

With all due respect Wayne, the Republican party doesn't control Rush
Limbaugh and Rush Limbaugh doesn't control the Republican party. Rush
will rise or fall based upon his audience and advertisers. The
Republican party leadership has lost its way and holds no sway over the
grass roots.

Debbie Wasserman Schultz needs to be muzzled due to her alienating swing
voters. Every time she speaks she lies.

The street has people on both sides ****ing off people on the other side
of the street.

I think the jury is still out on electric cars but any program at all
which encourages energy independence is a good thing in my opinion.

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

I say as long as batteries are what they are, the jury is indeed out,
and electric cars are dead...

Want to wager a LOT of money?

Provide proof as to who you are beyond all doubt and I may make a wager.


Oh brother, Plume is reverting to the "wanna' bet" defense again...

On 3/5/12 7:34 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/5/2012 7:12 PM, BAR wrote:
In articleCYWdnYBbwIZ0iMjSnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@earthlink .com, dump-on-
says...

On 3/5/12 2:18 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/5/2012 1:58 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 13:33:35 -0500, wrote:

On 3/5/2012 11:03 AM, Happy John wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:51:10 -0500,
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:19:14 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:
On 3/5/12 9:12 AM, Happy John wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:33:12 -0500,
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:20:52 -0500, Happy

wrote:
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 21:57:19 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:


On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 18:48:21 -0500,

wrote:

They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't
bothered by
the
price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are
spending
is
killing us....

===

I think everyone is affected by the price of gas to one
extent
or
another. My suggestion to people who do a lot of driving is
to
get a
more fuel efficient vehicle if at all possible. My truck is
getting
expensive at $80+ per fill up. I find it very strange that we
don't
have the large variety of small, fuel efficient diesels like
they
do
in Europe. My gut feel is that it is yet another
head-in-the-sand
Detroit issue. Last year we drove a full size Volkswagon
diesel
van
through the mountains of France, Switzerland and northern
Italy.
It
had plenty of power, seating for 6 adults, and a huge amount
of
luggage space. Average fuel economy was better than 20 mpg.


Good point. If the VW diesel van had not been withdrawn from
the US
market, that's probably what
we'd have been doing our camping in. Of course, the Mercedes
Sprinter is available, but they ain't
cheap.

What you just bought is way more beterer :-)

Well, it's definitely roomierer!




Lots of room to store a spare 500-gallon fuel tank? :)
Seriously, what sort of mileage do you anticipate? I hope you get
at
least 10 mpg.

I'd be tickled pink if my barge got even close to 10 MPG.

I expect to get about 12-14 with the trailer. I'm considering one
of these, but don't know if
they're worthwhile: http://www.bullydog.com/product.php?ID=2 I
think I'll start a separate thread to
see if anyone knows anything about them.

And, BTW, I don't think Harry can ask something serious, which is
why I responded to you.

If that thing can get your engine to open it's mouth wider it
might be
worth the 600 bucks. Otherwise dunno what you can do.

A few of the camping forum guys recommend getting the smog crap off
the engine. But, they don't get
specific enough.

You'll void any warranty you have doing that.

IIRC, it's a federal rap too.... Maybe that's just if a garage does
it...

What would Rush do?

Why don't you ask him.

Or you could ask Jon Stewart since what he said was 100 times worse...
or Chris Matthews, or: Well, read for yourself, in the words of a
prominent Liberal...

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/03/0...c-liberal-men/


As far as I am concerned anybody swiping at Rush that didn't go after
Jon Stewart or MSNBC (Like the dem senators and congressmen that go on
those shows all the time and never have the courage to call them out),
you are just another loud mouth with no concern for decency...




A bull**** right-wing screed from "hot air"?

Hehehe.

On 3/5/12 7:43 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/5/2012 7:26 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

In , says...

On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer
period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....

New technology bad.... FOX tell me.

Never install version 1.0 software.

Never purchase the first versions of anything.

Let someone else work out the bugs.



What is Plum talking about with the "Fox tell me" crap.. The desperate
whining of someone with no platform..

"The difference between Engineers and Technicians is, Engineers can draw
it on paper, it takes a technician to actually make it work...


More of the undereducated trashing those with educations.

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:40:14 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:

In most cases the "speculator" is the logistics manager for some large
petroleum consumer who is trying to do their job by locking up
sufficient future supplies.



I will grant what you say with this modification:

"In some cases, the speculator is the logistics manager..."

======

Let's take an example that everyone understands. Most people fill up
the tank of their car when it starts getting low, possibly less than a
quarter of a tank give or take. However, if there is talk of a
possible shortage or a major price increase, many people would start
filling up more often, oerhaps when half full or even 3/4ths. Does
that make them speculators? The exact same thing happens with
logistics managers who are hired to ensure adequate future deliveries.
Does that cause an increse in demand and increased auction prices?
Of course it does. Does that make them speculators?