In article ,
says...

In article ,
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In article ,
says...

On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 09:20:57 -0500, JustWait
wrote:

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed... snerk Sometimes it pays to look at the
world with an open mind...

Maybe if all of the whiny-ass neo-cons would quit badmouthing the car,
people would buy it. Maybe you WANT to continue supporting Arab Oil.

Why would we stop bad mouthing a car that is a useless pile of junk? I
have already proved that you can buy a car for $10,000 new and drive it
for hundreds of thousands of miles before you reach the acquisition cost
of a Volt.

I don't want to support Arab Oil, I want to support US Oil. Drill here,
drill now.

Oil is a finite resource. Let alone old technology.

Oil is a new technology. It is only about 170 years old.


You said the Volt was dead, obviously, you are entirely wrong again. A
five week suspension in production is hardly a death.

We will see if they restart production. They have dealers who refuse to
order Volt's and who refuse to have Volts pushed onto them. There must
be a reason that the Chevy's own dealers don't want the cars on their
lots.

Cite?

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...ers-rejection-
volt-allocation/

http://www.dailytech.com/Some+Chevro...g+on+Volt+EVs+
After+Fire+Concerns+Dwindling+Customer+Interest/article23852.htm

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/polit...-green-%E2%80%
9Cfield-dreams%E2%80%9D

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
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In article ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 09:35:24 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article , says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed... snerk Sometimes it pays to look at the
world with an open mind...

Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE who doesn't pay taxes, will have to find
another vehicle to force his people who have company cars to purchase
and drive.

http://gas2.org/2012/02/20/ge-forcin...o-chevy-volts/

===

With all due respect Bert, that sounds like a regurgitation from a
Rush Limbaugh rant. The republican party needs to put a muzzle on
that dude before he alienates every swing voter in the country.

I think the jury is still out on electric cars but any program at all
which encourages energy independence is a good thing in my opinion.

Exactly! I don't know why so many far right wingers are against getting
us off of oil.

The alternatives are not cost effective and you cannot turn the wind on
when you need more power nor can you turn the Sun on when it is night
time.

And there is a finite quantity of oil.

The amount of oil in North America makes Arabia look like an oil can
compared to a tanker truck.

Or so says FOX. So you think we should go to any length to get it, like
the oil sands of Canada? Isn't this a lovely sight:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...nd-landscapes/

Our whole country could look like that!

In article ,
says...

In article ,
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In article ,
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On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 09:20:57 -0500, JustWait
wrote:

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed... snerk Sometimes it pays to look at the
world with an open mind...

Maybe if all of the whiny-ass neo-cons would quit badmouthing the car,
people would buy it. Maybe you WANT to continue supporting Arab Oil.

Why would we stop bad mouthing a car that is a useless pile of junk? I
have already proved that you can buy a car for $10,000 new and drive it
for hundreds of thousands of miles before you reach the acquisition cost
of a Volt.

I don't want to support Arab Oil, I want to support US Oil. Drill here,
drill now.

Oil is a finite resource. Let alone old technology.

Oil is a new technology. It is only about 170 years old.

Now that's the typical Republican response to technology!


You said the Volt was dead, obviously, you are entirely wrong again. A
five week suspension in production is hardly a death.

We will see if they restart production. They have dealers who refuse to
order Volt's and who refuse to have Volts pushed onto them. There must
be a reason that the Chevy's own dealers don't want the cars on their
lots.

Cite?

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...ers-rejection-
volt-allocation/

http://www.dailytech.com/Some+Chevro...g+on+Volt+EVs+
After+Fire+Concerns+Dwindling+Customer+Interest/article23852.htm

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/polit...-green-%E2%80%
9Cfield-dreams%E2%80%9D


And NONE of those are peer reviewed studies, so it's just hearsay and
speculation, right?

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:37:27 -0500, wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 09:35:24 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article ,
says...


http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...g-the-plug-on-
a-government-funded-electric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed... snerk Sometimes it pays to look
at the
world with an open mind...

Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE who doesn't pay taxes, will have
to find
another vehicle to force his people who have company cars to
purchase
and drive.

http://gas2.org/2012/02/20/ge-forcin...o-chevy-volts/

If my employer "forced" me to drive a company car, I wouldn't
bitch
about who made it.

But maybe you feel entitled to force your employer to chose the
car of
YOUR choice?


I have never had a job where my employer provided me with a car or
a car
allowance.

I have. It's a pretty nice perk.

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, BAR wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.

On 3/4/2012 1:30 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 09:35:24 -0500, wrote:

In , says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it pays to look at the
world with an open mind...

Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE who doesn't pay taxes, will have to find
another vehicle to force his people who have company cars to purchase
and drive.

http://gas2.org/2012/02/20/ge-forcin...o-chevy-volts/

===

With all due respect Bert, that sounds like a regurgitation from a
Rush Limbaugh rant. The republican party needs to put a muzzle on
that dude before he alienates every swing voter in the country.

I think the jury is still out on electric cars but any program at all
which encourages energy independence is a good thing in my opinion.

Exactly! I don't know why so many far right wingers are against getting
us off of oil.

The alternatives are not cost effective and you cannot turn the wind on
when you need more power nor can you turn the Sun on when it is night
time.

It is the policy of this administration to make the lame technology that
is "green" energy competitive by raising the price of the other
options... They have been clear about this since before he became President.

On 3/4/2012 1:35 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 09:35:24 -0500, wrote:

In , says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it pays to look at the
world with an open mind...

Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE who doesn't pay taxes, will have to find
another vehicle to force his people who have company cars to purchase
and drive.

http://gas2.org/2012/02/20/ge-forcin...o-chevy-volts/

===

With all due respect Bert, that sounds like a regurgitation from a
Rush Limbaugh rant. The republican party needs to put a muzzle on
that dude before he alienates every swing voter in the country.

With all due respect Wayne, the Republican party doesn't control Rush
Limbaugh and Rush Limbaugh doesn't control the Republican party. Rush
will rise or fall based upon his audience and advertisers. The
Republican party leadership has lost its way and holds no sway over the
grass roots.

Debbie Wasserman Schultz needs to be muzzled due to her alienating swing
voters. Every time she speaks she lies.

The street has people on both sides ****ing off people on the other side
of the street.

I think the jury is still out on electric cars but any program at all
which encourages energy independence is a good thing in my opinion.

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

I say as long as batteries are what they are, the jury is indeed out,
and electric cars are dead...

On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message ...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:36:10 -0500, iBoaterer wrote:

In article , says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed... snerk Sometimes it pays to look at the
world with an open mind...

Has nothing to do with the technology and everything to do with the
sales.

It has everything to do with the COST of the technology tho.

Basically the problem is battery cost vs price.
These things are rich man's toys. If saving money is your objective,
buy a Cruze and put the left over $20,000-30,000 toward gas.

I understand the government will subsidize your electric car purchase
to make that price delta look more attractive but that does not reduce
the cost, it only transfers it to people who can't afford to buy one.


-----------------------------------
Very true. Look at the subsidy for a Tesla. Average income of a Tesla
buyer? $250k. As to technology. In 1919 an electric car got 30 miles to
the charge. What does a Volt get? 30 miles. Not a lot of technology
improvement in nearly a 100 years. Still down to battery technology. Plus
where is the power to charge going to come from? They say no pollution.
What about that coal or oil fired generating plant?

Actually they had a range of about 100 miles, but you'd probably bitch
about the 20 mph top speed, the eisenglass windows, and no gasoline
backup.

It appears that the same problems they were having 100 years ago with
electric vehicles are the same problems they have today.

http://inventors.about.com/od/estart...c-Vehicles.htm

The initiation of mass production of internal combustion engine vehicles
by Henry Ford made these vehicles widely available and affordable in the
$500 to $1,000 price range. By contrast, the price of the less
efficiently produced electric vehicles continued to rise. In 1912, an
electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a gasoline car sold for $650.

I'm waiting on the fuel cell. You people talk like the Wright Brothers
were idiots for not building the 747, first. Maybe Edison should have
invented the halogen bulb, first.

You will notice that the Wright brothers plane runs on the same fuel
that today's 747 runs on.

The response you'll type to this will be possible because of all of
the money spent 50+ years ago on the space program, which a lot of
people said was idiotic and useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

Things change and the gas station as we know it is on the same path as
the blacksmith at the end of the 19th century.

The fueling station will not change for another 50 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

You will notice that the Lion battery is way down near 0,0.

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 09:20:57 -0500, JustWait
wrote:

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed... snerk Sometimes it pays to look at the
world with an open mind...

Maybe if all of the whiny-ass neo-cons would quit badmouthing the car,
people would buy it. Maybe you WANT to continue supporting Arab Oil.

Why would we stop bad mouthing a car that is a useless pile of junk? I
have already proved that you can buy a car for $10,000 new and drive it
for hundreds of thousands of miles before you reach the acquisition cost
of a Volt.

I don't want to support Arab Oil, I want to support US Oil. Drill here,
drill now.

Oil is a finite resource. Let alone old technology.

Oil is a new technology. It is only about 170 years old.

Now that's the typical Republican response to technology!


You said the Volt was dead, obviously, you are entirely wrong again. A
five week suspension in production is hardly a death.

We will see if they restart production. They have dealers who refuse to
order Volt's and who refuse to have Volts pushed onto them. There must
be a reason that the Chevy's own dealers don't want the cars on their
lots.

Cite?

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...ers-rejection-
volt-allocation/

http://www.dailytech.com/Some+Chevro...g+on+Volt+EVs+
After+Fire+Concerns+Dwindling+Customer+Interest/article23852.htm

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/polit...-green-%E2%80%
9Cfield-dreams%E2%80%9D


And NONE of those are peer reviewed studies, so it's just hearsay and
speculation, right?

I never said they were peer reviewed studies. You wanted cites to
support my argument that Chevy dealers did not want Volt's on their lots
because they were hard to sell.