In article ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:41:00 -0500, BAR wrote:

I don't want to support Arab Oil, I want to support US Oil. Drill here,
drill now.

Why? Apparently we already have too much, since oil companies are
exporting American oil to foreign companies in record quantities.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issu...l_exports.html

The we have achieved our goal of stopping our dependence on foreign oil.
You lefties should be dancing in the streets.

And the Canadians want to share a pipeline to the gulf with American
companies to ship EVERYBODY'S oil overseas, too.

Ship the oil or gasoline over seas?

Drill, drill, drill? Hell no, if it isn't staying HERE (and it isn't).

Drill, drill, drill, sell, sell, sell, as long as they are buying the
oil from us I don't care what they do with it.

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:37:27 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 09:35:24 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article , says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed... snerk Sometimes it pays to look at the
world with an open mind...

Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE who doesn't pay taxes, will have to find
another vehicle to force his people who have company cars to purchase
and drive.

http://gas2.org/2012/02/20/ge-forcin...o-chevy-volts/

If my employer "forced" me to drive a company car, I wouldn't bitch
about who made it.

But maybe you feel entitled to force your employer to chose the car of
YOUR choice?

I have never had a job where my employer provided me with a car or a car
allowance.

I haven't either and if I had, I wouldn't be looking that gift horse
in the mouth.

Why would you?

It depends. My brother-in-law received a car allowance each month. The
allowance was to include the lease on the vehicle, insurance,
maintenance and fuel costs. The car he chose from the list of vehicles
was a gas pig. He was busting through hi allowance each month due to the
fuel costs.

On 3/4/12 6:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....



Your conspiracy theories are so lame they border on hilarious.

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, BAR wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.

The power grid isn't robust enough today. Adding more and more charging
stations is going to put more pressure on the system that it may not be
able to handle. It is like keeping the 100 amp service into your house
but re-wiring the inside to support 300 amps of continuous draw. Fancy
new charging stations on the old busted power grid is like putting
lipstick on a pig.

The heads on the wind turbines are still tearing themselves apart.

You can get lots of sunshine out in the middle of the desert but, you
have to push the electricity too far to make it useful.

My argument would be that you should buy a Prius or other small hybrid.
The vehicle is more practical and can be a replacement for a couple of
vehicles rather than just an around the neighborhood car.

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 17:20:57 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, BAR wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.

Yes. This is the lesson unlearned in the 70's. Can we really afford to
let this go again?

The lesson from the 70's was, drill here, drill now.

On 3/4/12 7:19 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.

The power grid isn't robust enough today. Adding more and more charging
stations is going to put more pressure on the system that it may not be
able to handle. It is like keeping the 100 amp service into your house
but re-wiring the inside to support 300 amps of continuous draw. Fancy
new charging stations on the old busted power grid is like putting
lipstick on a pig.

The heads on the wind turbines are still tearing themselves apart.

You can get lots of sunshine out in the middle of the desert but, you
have to push the electricity too far to make it useful.

My argument would be that you should buy a Prius or other small hybrid.
The vehicle is more practical and can be a replacement for a couple of
vehicles rather than just an around the neighborhood car.

Man will never fly.

In article , dump-on-
says...

On 3/4/12 7:19 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.

The power grid isn't robust enough today. Adding more and more charging
stations is going to put more pressure on the system that it may not be
able to handle. It is like keeping the 100 amp service into your house
but re-wiring the inside to support 300 amps of continuous draw. Fancy
new charging stations on the old busted power grid is like putting
lipstick on a pig.

The heads on the wind turbines are still tearing themselves apart.

You can get lots of sunshine out in the middle of the desert but, you
have to push the electricity too far to make it useful.

My argument would be that you should buy a Prius or other small hybrid.
The vehicle is more practical and can be a replacement for a couple of
vehicles rather than just an around the neighborhood car.

Man will never fly.

Power density. Power density. Power density.

There is a reason that the Wright brothers didn't use an electric motor
to power the airplane.

On 3/4/2012 7:06 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 6:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....



Your conspiracy theories are so lame they border on hilarious.

His administration has clearly stated that energy prices would go up
under his policy, and that fossil fuel needs to be the price of Europe
to make Green competitive, what is so hard about that...

And to the "conspiracy", the fact is they had reports like that on
several of the companies they bailed out including Corzine's company and
Solyndra where it was clear to them the money was not going to produce a
marketable product, but connected folks had bundled millions to the
election fund.... That is all clear, black and white...

On 3/4/12 8:07 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 7:06 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 6:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....



Your conspiracy theories are so lame they border on hilarious.

His administration has clearly stated that energy prices would go up
under his policy, and that fossil fuel needs to be the price of Europe
to make Green competitive, what is so hard about that...

And to the "conspiracy", the fact is they had reports like that on
several of the companies they bailed out including Corzine's company and
Solyndra where it was clear to them the money was not going to produce a
marketable product, but connected folks had bundled millions to the
election fund.... That is all clear, black and white...


Clear to a paranoid, perhaps.

On 3/4/2012 7:36 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 7:19 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.

The power grid isn't robust enough today. Adding more and more charging
stations is going to put more pressure on the system that it may not be
able to handle. It is like keeping the 100 amp service into your house
but re-wiring the inside to support 300 amps of continuous draw. Fancy
new charging stations on the old busted power grid is like putting
lipstick on a pig.

The heads on the wind turbines are still tearing themselves apart.

You can get lots of sunshine out in the middle of the desert but, you
have to push the electricity too far to make it useful.

My argument would be that you should buy a Prius or other small hybrid.
The vehicle is more practical and can be a replacement for a couple of
vehicles rather than just an around the neighborhood car.

Man will never fly.

Oh, man flies but not on a vacum cleaner and he probably won't drive
down the road on one either... Just not the right tool...