On 3/4/2012 8:08 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:07 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 7:06 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 6:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer
period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....



Your conspiracy theories are so lame they border on hilarious.

His administration has clearly stated that energy prices would go up
under his policy, and that fossil fuel needs to be the price of Europe
to make Green competitive, what is so hard about that...

And to the "conspiracy", the fact is they had reports like that on
several of the companies they bailed out including Corzine's company and
Solyndra where it was clear to them the money was not going to produce a
marketable product, but connected folks had bundled millions to the
election fund.... That is all clear, black and white...


Clear to a paranoid, perhaps.

Or to anybody not paid to follow a party line.... Or anybody who can read...

On 3/4/12 8:18 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 8:08 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:07 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 7:06 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 6:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric
needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer
period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road
starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the
price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....



Your conspiracy theories are so lame they border on hilarious.

His administration has clearly stated that energy prices would go up
under his policy, and that fossil fuel needs to be the price of Europe
to make Green competitive, what is so hard about that...

And to the "conspiracy", the fact is they had reports like that on
several of the companies they bailed out including Corzine's company and
Solyndra where it was clear to them the money was not going to produce a
marketable product, but connected folks had bundled millions to the
election fund.... That is all clear, black and white...


Clear to a paranoid, perhaps.

Or to anybody not paid to follow a party line.... Or anybody who can
read...


I have a feeling your particular brand of paranoia, a brand shared by
many on your side of the political fence, is going to lead your
political party, the GOP, to an unprecedented electoral disaster this
fall. Among other causes, your party is going to be pussy whipped, and
badly.

Delightful.

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

What about that coal or oil fired generating plant?

===

Oil fired plants are becoming very uncommon as more and more of them
have converted to natural gas. Coal is being phased out everywhere
in the US. Petroleum is becoming a transportation fuel as opposed to
a stationary power plant fuel. Natural gas will eventually become a
transportation fuel also.

On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 18:48:21 -0500, JustWait
wrote:

They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....

===

I think everyone is affected by the price of gas to one extent or
another. My suggestion to people who do a lot of driving is to get a
more fuel efficient vehicle if at all possible. My truck is getting
expensive at $80+ per fill up. I find it very strange that we don't
have the large variety of small, fuel efficient diesels like they do
in Europe. My gut feel is that it is yet another head-in-the-sand
Detroit issue. Last year we drove a full size Volkswagon diesel van
through the mountains of France, Switzerland and northern Italy. It
had plenty of power, seating for 6 adults, and a huge amount of
luggage space. Average fuel economy was better than 20 mpg.

On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 20:07:05 -0500, JustWait
wrote:

And to the "conspiracy", the fact is they had reports like that on
several of the companies they bailed out including Corzine's company

===

Corzine's company (MF Global) has not been bailed out. The bankruptcy
investigations are still proceeding and *many* people and institutions
are still holding the bag. Not all of them are fat cats either.

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 19:19:33 -0500, BAR wrote:

My argument would be that you should buy a Prius or other small hybrid.
The vehicle is more practical and can be a replacement for a couple of
vehicles rather than just an around the neighborhood car.

===

The Prius is a good vehicle. I know several people who have them and
they are all very happy. I view the Volt as a first attempt which
will hopefully get better.

On 3/4/2012 9:13 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:18 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 8:08 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:07 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 7:06 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 6:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The
problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric
needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer
period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road
starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome
where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and
vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the
price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....



Your conspiracy theories are so lame they border on hilarious.

His administration has clearly stated that energy prices would go up
under his policy, and that fossil fuel needs to be the price of Europe
to make Green competitive, what is so hard about that...

And to the "conspiracy", the fact is they had reports like that on
several of the companies they bailed out including Corzine's company
and
Solyndra where it was clear to them the money was not going to
produce a
marketable product, but connected folks had bundled millions to the
election fund.... That is all clear, black and white...


Clear to a paranoid, perhaps.

Or to anybody not paid to follow a party line.... Or anybody who can
read...


I have a feeling your particular brand of paranoia, a brand shared by
many on your side of the political fence, is going to lead your
political party, the GOP, to an unprecedented electoral disaster this
fall. Among other causes, your party is going to be pussy whipped, and
badly.

Delightful.

Oh brother, Harry is back... later Harry...

On 3/4/2012 9:57 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 18:48:21 -0500,
wrote:

They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....

===

I think everyone is affected by the price of gas to one extent or
another. My suggestion to people who do a lot of driving is to get a
more fuel efficient vehicle if at all possible. My truck is getting
expensive at $80+ per fill up. I find it very strange that we don't
have the large variety of small, fuel efficient diesels like they do
in Europe. My gut feel is that it is yet another head-in-the-sand
Detroit issue. Last year we drove a full size Volkswagon diesel van
through the mountains of France, Switzerland and northern Italy. It
had plenty of power, seating for 6 adults, and a huge amount of
luggage space. Average fuel economy was better than 20 mpg.


We have a little four cylinder, but most times we are towing or in need
of the big 4x4...

On 3/4/2012 10:16 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 9:13 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:18 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 8:08 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:07 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 7:06 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 6:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The
problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric
needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer
period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road
starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome
where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and
vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these
cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have
talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the
price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can
say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said
they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the
price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....



Your conspiracy theories are so lame they border on hilarious.

His administration has clearly stated that energy prices would go up
under his policy, and that fossil fuel needs to be the price of Europe
to make Green competitive, what is so hard about that...

And to the "conspiracy", the fact is they had reports like that on
several of the companies they bailed out including Corzine's company
and
Solyndra where it was clear to them the money was not going to
produce a
marketable product, but connected folks had bundled millions to the
election fund.... That is all clear, black and white...


Clear to a paranoid, perhaps.

Or to anybody not paid to follow a party line.... Or anybody who can
read...


I have a feeling your particular brand of paranoia, a brand shared by
many on your side of the political fence, is going to lead your
political party, the GOP, to an unprecedented electoral disaster this
fall. Among other causes, your party is going to be pussy whipped, and
badly.

Delightful.

Oh brother, Harry is back... later Harry...

forgot to say plonk

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 18:48:21 -0500, JustWait
wrote:

They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....

===

I think everyone is affected by the price of gas to one extent or
another. My suggestion to people who do a lot of driving is to get a
more fuel efficient vehicle if at all possible. My truck is getting
expensive at $80+ per fill up. I find it very strange that we don't
have the large variety of small, fuel efficient diesels like they do
in Europe. My gut feel is that it is yet another head-in-the-sand
Detroit issue. Last year we drove a full size Volkswagon diesel van
through the mountains of France, Switzerland and northern Italy. It
had plenty of power, seating for 6 adults, and a huge amount of
luggage space. Average fuel economy was better than 20 mpg.


--------------------------
Is the EPA. Say the small diesels put out to many particulates. A VW Jetta
TDI I rented in Italy 6 years ago, got over 50 mpg. How much more pollution
do you get from a 50 mpg vehicle than a 25 mpg vehicle that burns most of
the extra energy in the pollution controls? And even my 2004 Duramax diesel
has a particulate filter.