In article ,
says...

In article , dump-on-
says...

On 3/4/12 7:19 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.

The power grid isn't robust enough today. Adding more and more charging
stations is going to put more pressure on the system that it may not be
able to handle. It is like keeping the 100 amp service into your house
but re-wiring the inside to support 300 amps of continuous draw. Fancy
new charging stations on the old busted power grid is like putting
lipstick on a pig.

The heads on the wind turbines are still tearing themselves apart.

You can get lots of sunshine out in the middle of the desert but, you
have to push the electricity too far to make it useful.

My argument would be that you should buy a Prius or other small hybrid.
The vehicle is more practical and can be a replacement for a couple of
vehicles rather than just an around the neighborhood car.

Man will never fly.

Power density. Power density. Power density.

There is a reason that the Wright brothers didn't use an electric motor
to power the airplane.

Because they didn't have the technology.

In article , says...

On 3/4/2012 7:36 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 7:19 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.

The power grid isn't robust enough today. Adding more and more charging
stations is going to put more pressure on the system that it may not be
able to handle. It is like keeping the 100 amp service into your house
but re-wiring the inside to support 300 amps of continuous draw. Fancy
new charging stations on the old busted power grid is like putting
lipstick on a pig.

The heads on the wind turbines are still tearing themselves apart.

You can get lots of sunshine out in the middle of the desert but, you
have to push the electricity too far to make it useful.

My argument would be that you should buy a Prius or other small hybrid.
The vehicle is more practical and can be a replacement for a couple of
vehicles rather than just an around the neighborhood car.

Man will never fly.

Oh, man flies but not on a vacum cleaner and he probably won't drive
down the road on one either... Just not the right tool...

New technology bad.... FOX tell me.... Me scared.....

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 19:19:33 -0500, BAR wrote:

My argument would be that you should buy a Prius or other small hybrid.
The vehicle is more practical and can be a replacement for a couple of
vehicles rather than just an around the neighborhood car.

===

The Prius is a good vehicle. I know several people who have them and
they are all very happy. I view the Volt as a first attempt which
will hopefully get better.

Yes, as I've said before, that's the way things worked with the Pinto
and Vega. I remember back then, the Republicans were scared of THAT new
technology too.

In article , says...

On 3/4/2012 1:30 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 09:35:24 -0500, wrote:

In , says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it pays to look at the
world with an open mind...

Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE who doesn't pay taxes, will have to find
another vehicle to force his people who have company cars to purchase
and drive.

http://gas2.org/2012/02/20/ge-forcin...o-chevy-volts/

===

With all due respect Bert, that sounds like a regurgitation from a
Rush Limbaugh rant. The republican party needs to put a muzzle on
that dude before he alienates every swing voter in the country.

I think the jury is still out on electric cars but any program at all
which encourages energy independence is a good thing in my opinion.

Exactly! I don't know why so many far right wingers are against getting
us off of oil.

The alternatives are not cost effective and you cannot turn the wind on
when you need more power nor can you turn the Sun on when it is night
time.

It is the policy of this administration to make the lame technology that
is "green" energy competitive by raising the price of the other
options... They have been clear about this since before he became President.

Cite?

In article , says...

On 3/4/2012 1:35 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 09:35:24 -0500, wrote:

In , says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it pays to look at the
world with an open mind...

Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE who doesn't pay taxes, will have to find
another vehicle to force his people who have company cars to purchase
and drive.

http://gas2.org/2012/02/20/ge-forcin...o-chevy-volts/

===

With all due respect Bert, that sounds like a regurgitation from a
Rush Limbaugh rant. The republican party needs to put a muzzle on
that dude before he alienates every swing voter in the country.

With all due respect Wayne, the Republican party doesn't control Rush
Limbaugh and Rush Limbaugh doesn't control the Republican party. Rush
will rise or fall based upon his audience and advertisers. The
Republican party leadership has lost its way and holds no sway over the
grass roots.

Debbie Wasserman Schultz needs to be muzzled due to her alienating swing
voters. Every time she speaks she lies.

The street has people on both sides ****ing off people on the other side
of the street.

I think the jury is still out on electric cars but any program at all
which encourages energy independence is a good thing in my opinion.

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

I say as long as batteries are what they are, the jury is indeed out,
and electric cars are dead...

Want to wager a LOT of money?

In article , says...

On 3/5/2012 6:12 AM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

What about that coal or oil fired generating plant?

===

Oil fired plants are becoming very uncommon as more and more of them
have converted to natural gas. Coal is being phased out everywhere
in the US. Petroleum is becoming a transportation fuel as opposed to
a stationary power plant fuel. Natural gas will eventually become a
transportation fuel also.

Coal is not being phased out, it is being forced out by regulation.

The idea is to raise the prices so much, "green' energy seems competitive...

Cite?

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 09:35:24 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article ,
says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed... snerk Sometimes it pays to look
at the
world with an open mind...

Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE who doesn't pay taxes, will have to
find
another vehicle to force his people who have company cars to
purchase
and drive.

http://gas2.org/2012/02/20/ge-forcin...o-chevy-volts/

===

With all due respect Bert, that sounds like a regurgitation from a
Rush Limbaugh rant. The republican party needs to put a muzzle on
that dude before he alienates every swing voter in the country.

I think the jury is still out on electric cars but any program at
all
which encourages energy independence is a good thing in my
opinion.

Exactly! I don't know why so many far right wingers are against
getting
us off of oil.

The alternatives are not cost effective and you cannot turn the wind
on
when you need more power nor can you turn the Sun on when it is night
time.

And there is a finite quantity of oil.

The amount of oil in North America makes Arabia look like an oil can
compared to a tanker truck.

Or so says FOX. So you think we should go to any length to get it, like
the oil sands of Canada? Isn't this a lovely sight:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...nd-landscapes/

Our whole country could look like that!


______________________________
So it is OK to drill and pollute the Middle East and South America, but not
here? Looks about like an open pit mine for most any mineral in the world.
US included. Most of the Electricity is oil or coal fired plants. So you
get to mine that or drill for that. Electric cars are burning fossil fuel
also, just not at the vehicle.

A well is a pipe in the ground, oil sands are gotten from stripping the
landscape, two entirely different things.

On 3/4/12 6:57 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:41:00 -0500, wrote:

I don't want to support Arab Oil, I want to support US Oil. Drill here,
drill now.

Why? Apparently we already have too much, since oil companies are
exporting American oil to foreign companies in record quantities.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issu...l_exports.html

The we have achieved our goal of stopping our dependence on foreign oil.
You lefties should be dancing in the streets.

And the Canadians want to share a pipeline to the gulf with American
companies to ship EVERYBODY'S oil overseas, too.

Ship the oil or gasoline over seas?

Drill, drill, drill? Hell no, if it isn't staying HERE (and it isn't).

Drill, drill, drill, sell, sell, sell, as long as they are buying the
oil from us I don't care what they do with it.





What's the point of selling this country's natural resources overseas? I
hope your answer isn't "making money."

On 3/4/12 10:16 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 9:13 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:18 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 8:08 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 8:07 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 7:06 PM, X ` Man wrote:
On 3/4/12 6:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The
problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric
needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer
period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road
starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome
where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and
vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these
cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have
talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the
price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can
say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said
they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the
price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....



Your conspiracy theories are so lame they border on hilarious.

His administration has clearly stated that energy prices would go up
under his policy, and that fossil fuel needs to be the price of Europe
to make Green competitive, what is so hard about that...

And to the "conspiracy", the fact is they had reports like that on
several of the companies they bailed out including Corzine's company
and
Solyndra where it was clear to them the money was not going to
produce a
marketable product, but connected folks had bundled millions to the
election fund.... That is all clear, black and white...


Clear to a paranoid, perhaps.

Or to anybody not paid to follow a party line.... Or anybody who can
read...


I have a feeling your particular brand of paranoia, a brand shared by
many on your side of the political fence, is going to lead your
political party, the GOP, to an unprecedented electoral disaster this
fall. Among other causes, your party is going to be pussy whipped, and
badly.

Delightful.

Oh brother, Harry is back... later Harry...


Just an observation on what at this moment seems to be the GOP's future
as a party able to elect a president. It's gotten so far to the right,
so extreme, and has so much hate for so many disparate groups, that even
erudite columnists who are nominal or actual Republicans are predicting
disaster for the party.

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:33:12 -0500, oscar wrote:

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:20:52 -0500, Happy John
wrote:
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 21:57:19 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:


On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 18:48:21 -0500, JustWait
wrote:

They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the
price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending
is
killing us....

===

I think everyone is affected by the price of gas to one extent or
another. My suggestion to people who do a lot of driving is to
get a
more fuel efficient vehicle if at all possible. My truck is
getting
expensive at $80+ per fill up. I find it very strange that we
don't
have the large variety of small, fuel efficient diesels like they
do
in Europe. My gut feel is that it is yet another head-in-the-sand
Detroit issue. Last year we drove a full size Volkswagon diesel
van
through the mountains of France, Switzerland and northern Italy.
It
had plenty of power, seating for 6 adults, and a huge amount of
luggage space. Average fuel economy was better than 20 mpg.


Good point. If the VW diesel van had not been withdrawn from the US
market, that's probably what
we'd have been doing our camping in. Of course, the Mercedes
Sprinter is available, but they ain't
cheap.

What you just bought is way more beterer :-)

Well, it's definitely roomierer!