In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 17:20:57 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, BAR wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.

Yes. This is the lesson unlearned in the 70's. Can we really afford to
let this go again?

The lesson from the 70's was, drill here, drill now.

Bull****.

If we had drilled here and drilled now in the 70's we would not have had
to worry about the middle east at all. They could have ****ed all over
each other and it would not have mattered to us in the US because we
would have had our own oil being pumped from our own yards.

They didn't have the technology back then to find it, to start with. I
know because I actually worked for a summer on an exploration crew in
the northeast trying to do just that, find oil. Using sonar.

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article , says...

On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....

New technology bad.... FOX tell me.

Never install version 1.0 software.

Never purchase the first versions of anything.

Let someone else work out the bugs.

New technology bad, FOX tell me.

In article , says...

On 3/5/2012 7:26 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

In , says...

On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....

New technology bad.... FOX tell me.

Never install version 1.0 software.

Never purchase the first versions of anything.

Let someone else work out the bugs.



What is Plum talking about with the "Fox tell me" crap.. The desperate
whining of someone with no platform..

"The difference between Engineers and Technicians is, Engineers can draw
it on paper, it takes a technician to actually make it work...

If you really believe that, you are uneducated in the physical sciences,
that's for sure.

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 20:06:14 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:

On 3/5/12 7:43 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/5/2012 7:26 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

In , says...

On 3/4/2012 5:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 13:35:14 -0500, wrote:

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive
downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer
period
of time and distance.

===

I think we both agree on most of those points. Where we seem to
disagree is whether or not it makes sense to roll out half a loaf.

Knowing full well the limitations of half a loaf, I still say yes.
The reason being that getting some electric cars on the road starts to
get people thinking about the infrastucture issues (like charging
stations and better batteries). Same thing with alternative energy
like wind and solar. If you don't start rolling some of this out to
the public you end up with a perpetual chicken and egg syndrome where
you can't have the chicken because you don't yet have an egg and vice
versa. There are also a lot of people whose transportation needs
would be well served right now by a car like the Volt. The problem
is price of course, and prices will not come down until there is
economy of scale, with the engineering and tooling costs amortized
across a wider base. I could use a Volt right now if the price was
right. It would be great for running short errands and the like,
running on gas for the occasional longer trip.


The problem Wayne, is the administration is trying to make these cars
feasible by raising the cost of the alternatives so they have talking
points... Right now it takes almost ten years to recover the price of
the car, when they get the gas up to 8 dollars a gallon, they can say
"look, you recover your investment in three years!"... They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by the price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are spending is
killing us....

New technology bad.... FOX tell me.

Never install version 1.0 software.

Never purchase the first versions of anything.

Let someone else work out the bugs.



What is Plum talking about with the "Fox tell me" crap.. The desperate
whining of someone with no platform..

"The difference between Engineers and Technicians is, Engineers can draw
it on paper, it takes a technician to actually make it work...


More of the undereducated trashing those with educations.

Apparently, you've never worked with an engineer that has no practical
experience (or common sense).

Note to Universe: Being Highly Qualified (which, in today's PC world
means having papers) does NOT make one competent.

But it doesn't necessarily make them INcompetent as Scotty is
suggesting.

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article , says...

On 3/4/2012 1:35 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 09:35:24 -0500, wrote:

In , says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it pays to look at the
world with an open mind...

Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE who doesn't pay taxes, will have to find
another vehicle to force his people who have company cars to purchase
and drive.

http://gas2.org/2012/02/20/ge-forcin...o-chevy-volts/

===

With all due respect Bert, that sounds like a regurgitation from a
Rush Limbaugh rant. The republican party needs to put a muzzle on
that dude before he alienates every swing voter in the country.

With all due respect Wayne, the Republican party doesn't control Rush
Limbaugh and Rush Limbaugh doesn't control the Republican party. Rush
will rise or fall based upon his audience and advertisers. The
Republican party leadership has lost its way and holds no sway over the
grass roots.

Debbie Wasserman Schultz needs to be muzzled due to her alienating swing
voters. Every time she speaks she lies.

The street has people on both sides ****ing off people on the other side
of the street.

I think the jury is still out on electric cars but any program at all
which encourages energy independence is a good thing in my opinion.

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

I say as long as batteries are what they are, the jury is indeed out,
and electric cars are dead...

Want to wager a LOT of money?

Provide proof as to who you are beyond all doubt and I may make a wager.

Oh, there you go, you, Scotty and Don, trying to out everybody once
again. I DO hope you realize, there are many electric cars in the world
humming along quite nicely.

In article , says...

On 3/5/2012 7:31 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

In , says...

On 3/4/2012 1:35 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 09:35:24 -0500, wrote:

In , says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it pays to look at the
world with an open mind...

Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE who doesn't pay taxes, will have to find
another vehicle to force his people who have company cars to purchase
and drive.

http://gas2.org/2012/02/20/ge-forcin...o-chevy-volts/

===

With all due respect Bert, that sounds like a regurgitation from a
Rush Limbaugh rant. The republican party needs to put a muzzle on
that dude before he alienates every swing voter in the country.

With all due respect Wayne, the Republican party doesn't control Rush
Limbaugh and Rush Limbaugh doesn't control the Republican party. Rush
will rise or fall based upon his audience and advertisers. The
Republican party leadership has lost its way and holds no sway over the
grass roots.

Debbie Wasserman Schultz needs to be muzzled due to her alienating swing
voters. Every time she speaks she lies.

The street has people on both sides ****ing off people on the other side
of the street.

I think the jury is still out on electric cars but any program at all
which encourages energy independence is a good thing in my opinion.

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

I say as long as batteries are what they are, the jury is indeed out,
and electric cars are dead...

Want to wager a LOT of money?

Provide proof as to who you are beyond all doubt and I may make a wager.


Oh brother, Plume is reverting to the "wanna' bet" defense again...

Hey, he said the electric car is "dead"! I could make some real money
from this. Now you and BAR need to start outing people to make your
position seem plausible. THAT's a laugh!

In article ,
says...

In article , says...

On 3/5/2012 7:31 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

In , says...

On 3/4/2012 1:35 PM, BAR wrote:
In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 09:35:24 -0500, wrote:

In , says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it pays to look at the
world with an open mind...

Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE who doesn't pay taxes, will have to find
another vehicle to force his people who have company cars to purchase
and drive.

http://gas2.org/2012/02/20/ge-forcin...o-chevy-volts/

===

With all due respect Bert, that sounds like a regurgitation from a
Rush Limbaugh rant. The republican party needs to put a muzzle on
that dude before he alienates every swing voter in the country.

With all due respect Wayne, the Republican party doesn't control Rush
Limbaugh and Rush Limbaugh doesn't control the Republican party. Rush
will rise or fall based upon his audience and advertisers. The
Republican party leadership has lost its way and holds no sway over the
grass roots.

Debbie Wasserman Schultz needs to be muzzled due to her alienating swing
voters. Every time she speaks she lies.

The street has people on both sides ****ing off people on the other side
of the street.

I think the jury is still out on electric cars but any program at all
which encourages energy independence is a good thing in my opinion.

The jury is in on electric cars. They are the future. The problem is
that there hasn't been enough R&D to make them feasible yet.

The hybrid, gas-electric, is just a diesel-electric locomotive downsized
with the added benefit of pulling the electricity generated from
breaking and coasting to charge the batteries. The all electric needs
needs work with storing enough power to be useful over a longer period
of time and distance.

I say as long as batteries are what they are, the jury is indeed out,
and electric cars are dead...

Want to wager a LOT of money?

Provide proof as to who you are beyond all doubt and I may make a wager.


Oh brother, Plume is reverting to the "wanna' bet" defense again...

I have decided to call it out. I will bet it if it provides me with
incontrovertible proof as to who it really is.

It will have to figure out how to get the information about itself to me
because I have put it back in the box for a while.

Yep, little kid's minds, need to out someone in a newsgroup because you
know you are just afraid of technology because FOX tells you to be.

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 09:35:24 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article ,
says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/


Told you, and you laughed... snerk Sometimes it pays to look
at the
world with an open mind...

Jeffrey Immelt, the CEO of GE who doesn't pay taxes, will have to
find
another vehicle to force his people who have company cars to
purchase
and drive.

http://gas2.org/2012/02/20/ge-forcin...o-chevy-volts/

===

With all due respect Bert, that sounds like a regurgitation from a
Rush Limbaugh rant. The republican party needs to put a muzzle on
that dude before he alienates every swing voter in the country.

I think the jury is still out on electric cars but any program at
all
which encourages energy independence is a good thing in my
opinion.

Exactly! I don't know why so many far right wingers are against
getting
us off of oil.

The alternatives are not cost effective and you cannot turn the wind
on
when you need more power nor can you turn the Sun on when it is night
time.

And there is a finite quantity of oil.

The amount of oil in North America makes Arabia look like an oil can
compared to a tanker truck.

Or so says FOX. So you think we should go to any length to get it, like
the oil sands of Canada? Isn't this a lovely sight:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...nd-landscapes/

Our whole country could look like that!


______________________________
So it is OK to drill and pollute the Middle East and South America, but not
here? Looks about like an open pit mine for most any mineral in the world.
US included. Most of the Electricity is oil or coal fired plants. So you
get to mine that or drill for that. Electric cars are burning fossil fuel
also, just not at the vehicle.

A well is a pipe in the ground, oil sands are gotten from stripping the
landscape, two entirely different things.

A well is a hole in the ground. A pipe is not needed.

But you are still okay with stripping off land for oil sands, eh?
You're back yard could look like this great view:

http://realsociology.edublogs.org/fi...ds3-u4fila.jpg

Or this:

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic....rs-after-911-%
E2%80%93-canadas-true-cost-of-oil/

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 14:18:13 -0500, JustWait wrote:

On 3/5/2012 1:58 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,
says...

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 13:33:35 -0500, wrote:

On 3/5/2012 11:03 AM, Happy John wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:51:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:19:14 -0500, X ` Man
wrote:
On 3/5/12 9:12 AM, Happy John wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:33:12 -0500,
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:20:52 -0500, Happy

wrote:
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 21:57:19 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:


On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 18:48:21 -0500,

wrote:

They said they
were gonna' do it. I know most of you here aren't bothered by
the
price
of gas, but that nearly 75 extra dollars a week we are
spending
is
killing us....

===

I think everyone is affected by the price of gas to one extent
or
another. My suggestion to people who do a lot of driving is
to
get a
more fuel efficient vehicle if at all possible. My truck is
getting
expensive at $80+ per fill up. I find it very strange that we
don't
have the large variety of small, fuel efficient diesels like
they
do
in Europe. My gut feel is that it is yet another
head-in-the-sand
Detroit issue. Last year we drove a full size Volkswagon
diesel
van
through the mountains of France, Switzerland and northern
Italy.
It
had plenty of power, seating for 6 adults, and a huge amount
of
luggage space. Average fuel economy was better than 20 mpg.


Good point. If the VW diesel van had not been withdrawn from
the US
market, that's probably what
we'd have been doing our camping in. Of course, the Mercedes
Sprinter is available, but they ain't
cheap.

What you just bought is way more beterer :-)

Well, it's definitely roomierer!




Lots of room to store a spare 500-gallon fuel tank? :)
Seriously, what sort of mileage do you anticipate? I hope you get
at
least 10 mpg.

I'd be tickled pink if my barge got even close to 10 MPG.

I expect to get about 12-14 with the trailer. I'm considering one of these, but don't know if
they're worthwhile: http://www.bullydog.com/product.php?ID=2 I think I'll start a separate thread to
see if anyone knows anything about them.

And, BTW, I don't think Harry can ask something serious, which is why I responded to you.

If that thing can get your engine to open it's mouth wider it might be
worth the 600 bucks. Otherwise dunno what you can do.

A few of the camping forum guys recommend getting the smog crap off the engine. But, they don't get
specific enough.

You'll void any warranty you have doing that.

IIRC, it's a federal rap too.... Maybe that's just if a garage does it...

Kevin's warranty comment lead me to get out the warranty book again. I'd thought the warranty was
for three years or 36000. But, the Duramax is for five years or 100,000 miles.

Now all thoughts of any engine mods are out the window for a couple years!

Hey, John, just a warning. Keep calling me who I'm not, I'm sure it's
****ing Kevin off. In order to play your game, asshole, I'll post your
phone number, and your address. Go ahead, ****head. Try me.

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 21:36:09 -0600, Boating All Out
wrote:

What's your point? That's also well known.
To be clear, my point in posting is to refute your suggestion that oil
futures - and oil prices - are determined by producers and consumers and
classical supply/demand fundamentals.
Oil prices are determined by Wall Street speculators.
Nothing to do with market fundamentals.

===

Nothing at all? Interesting world you live in.

Same world as the CEO of Exxon Mobil.
He said it.
Didn't expect you to read it.
Runs counter to the pre-conceived notions in your world.