In article ,
says...

On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 09:10:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Another problem not addressed is the battery stores and sources DC, but the power grid is AC. So now we'll have to convert that with big power stations that take DC and convert it to AC. DC motors turning AC generators?

===

Absolutely not - high efficiency solid state power inverters.

There's many, many forms of alternative energy being worked on. Too many
to list.

On Wednesday, June 27, 2012 2:05:53 PM UTC-4, Wayne. B wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 09:10:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Another problem not addressed is the battery stores and sources DC, but the power grid is AC. So now we'll have to convert that with big power stations that take DC and convert it to AC. DC motors turning AC generators?

===

Absolutely not - high efficiency solid state power inverters.

Being an electronics guy, I thought about inveters... just wondered if you could scale one up enought to power 200 homes, as he says his ultimate big battery will do. Assuming 200 amps per house, that's 40,000 amps. That's one hell of an inverter. And another big heat source, even with the high efficiency.

On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 11:59:03 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, June 27, 2012 2:05:53 PM UTC-4, Wayne. B wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 09:10:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Another problem not addressed is the battery stores and sources DC, but the power grid is AC. So now we'll have to convert that with big power stations that take DC and convert it to AC. DC motors turning AC generators?

===

Absolutely not - high efficiency solid state power inverters.

Being an electronics guy, I thought about inveters... just wondered if you could scale one up enought to power 200 homes, as he says his ultimate big battery will do. Assuming 200 amps per house, that's 40,000 amps. That's one hell of an inverter. And another big heat source, even with the high efficiency.

=====

There are solid state switching devices that will handle huge amounts
of power with efficiencies in the 90 to 95% range. That's a lot more
efficient than a typical motor-generator set. Of course heat is
related to the amount of conversion loss so higher efficiency means
less heat. I worked in a reserch lab at Cornell University back in
the late 1960s where we had a multi-million watt solid state inverter
for powering the magnet ring of a particle accelerator. The
electronics were not that exotic even then.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 11:59:03 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, June 27, 2012 2:05:53 PM UTC-4, Wayne. B wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 09:10:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Another problem not addressed is the battery stores and sources DC, but
the power grid is AC. So now we'll have to convert that with big power
stations that take DC and convert it to AC. DC motors turning AC
generators?

===

Absolutely not - high efficiency solid state power inverters.

Being an electronics guy, I thought about inveters... just wondered if you
could scale one up enought to power 200 homes, as he says his ultimate big
battery will do. Assuming 200 amps per house, that's 40,000 amps. That's
one hell of an inverter. And another big heat source, even with the high
efficiency.

=====

There are solid state switching devices that will handle huge amounts
of power with efficiencies in the 90 to 95% range. That's a lot more
efficient than a typical motor-generator set. Of course heat is
related to the amount of conversion loss so higher efficiency means
less heat. I worked in a reserch lab at Cornell University back in
the late 1960s where we had a multi-million watt solid state inverter
for powering the magnet ring of a particle accelerator. The
electronics were not that exotic even then.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The power grid has to stay AC. Was the big battle between Edison and Tesla.
The DC was short distance, and the losses were large.

On Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:11:03 PM UTC-4, Wayne. B wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 11:59:03 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, June 27, 2012 2:05:53 PM UTC-4, Wayne. B wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 09:10:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Another problem not addressed is the battery stores and sources DC, but the power grid is AC. So now we'll have to convert that with big power stations that take DC and convert it to AC. DC motors turning AC generators?

===

Absolutely not - high efficiency solid state power inverters.

Being an electronics guy, I thought about inveters... just wondered if you could scale one up enought to power 200 homes, as he says his ultimate big battery will do. Assuming 200 amps per house, that's 40,000 amps. That's one hell of an inverter. And another big heat source, even with the high efficiency.

=====

There are solid state switching devices that will handle huge amounts
of power with efficiencies in the 90 to 95% range. That's a lot more
efficient than a typical motor-generator set. Of course heat is
related to the amount of conversion loss so higher efficiency means
less heat. I worked in a reserch lab at Cornell University back in
the late 1960s where we had a multi-million watt solid state inverter
for powering the magnet ring of a particle accelerator. The
electronics were not that exotic even then.

I don't doubt it, but that was intermittant duty, and not really mission critical. We're talking about 10 million watts (give or take) and 24/7/365.
5-10% of that is a LOT of heat to dissipate. That particle accelerator could go down for a week and it was not that big of a deal.

This is all cool stuff. We'll get there, where "there" is, one day.

On 6/27/2012 11:59 AM, wrote:

Being an electronics guy, I thought about inveters... just wondered if you could scale one up enought to power 200 homes, as he says his ultimate big battery will do. Assuming 200 amps per house, that's 40,000 amps. That's one hell of an inverter. And another big heat source, even with the high efficiency.

Why do it all in one place? The inverters could be distributed and
tailored to smaller loads.

On Thursday, June 28, 2012 12:30:42 AM UTC-4, thumper wrote:
On 6/27/2012 11:59 AM, wrote:

Being an electronics guy, I thought about inveters... just wondered if you could scale one up enought to power 200 homes, as he says his ultimate big battery will do. Assuming 200 amps per house, that's 40,000 amps. That's one hell of an inverter. And another big heat source, even with the high efficiency.

Why do it all in one place? The inverters could be distributed and
tailored to smaller loads.

The presentation was talking about hooking this "to the grid", which implies a single connection point. You could distribute the DC then supply smaller loads, but now you'd have a single point of failure for those small loads, and you'd have the addition issue of the DC distribution. If you retain the present connection to the AC grid at each smaller load point (for redundancy), now you have two completely different distribution systems. We're quickly pricing this technology out of the realm of possibility.

wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:05:22 AM UTC-4, Boating All Out wrote:
Pick the one who makes more sense, and go with that.

Justwait

or

http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sado...o_renewable_en
ergy.html

He's a captivating and convincing speaker, and his battery is a pretty
cool idea. However, he glosses over some serious and real problems
and concerns.

Antimony is toxic and in some forms can ignite or explode. Don't even
get me started about magnesium. A 40 foot shipping container full of
molten antimony and magnesium would be a high value target for someone
wanting to wreak some serious havoc.

Also, for example, antimony melts at almost 1200 degrees F. That's
going to be one hot sucker... wonder what hundred (thousands?) of
those will do for global warming?

Another problem not addressed is the battery stores and sources DC,
but the power grid is AC. So now we'll have to convert that with big
power stations that take DC and convert it to AC. DC motors turning
AC generators?

He knows all this stuff, but in his talk to that audience, it doesn't
make sense to go into those things. That's why it's important to
listen with a critical ear sometimes.

I wish him and all the people working on these kinds of problems the
best of luck! They are sure gonna need it.

-------------------------------------------------------------


Interesting presentation but storage is not the primary challenge.
Generation is the challenge.

The only viable alternative to oil and other fossil fuel energy
generation is nuclear until some other
major breakthough is discovered.

I got a kick out of his presentation though. It was obviously not to
a group of his peers in the scientific
community. Well done, but if that presentation had been given at a
technical convention it would
have been met with multiple challenges and hot debates from the
audience, not a standing ovation.

In article ,
says...


Interesting presentation but storage is not the primary challenge.
Generation is the challenge.


No. Storage and transmission are the main challenges.


"Nevada has the highest solar energy potential in the nation and is
already the number one state in per capita solar energy production. The
DOE estimates that 100 square miles of Nevada land could supply all U.S.
electricity needs with current (~10%) commercial efficiency rates. With
over 250 days of sunshine a year, Nevada is looking forward to a bright
solar future."

You can find similar all over the net. But the "100 square miles" is
wrong. Should read "100 miles square," which is 10,000 square miles.
That's about .0025 of U.S total square miles.
But solar panel efficiency is already about twice the 10% mentioned, so
that already halves the space needed. Things are moving fast in that
area.
Practically, the solar farms would be spread in many places over areas
with good sunshine.
What's lacking is storage, transmission, and a plan.
Same with wind, which also reduces the footprint of solar.


The only viable alternative to oil and other fossil fuel energy
generation is nuclear until some other
major breakthough is discovered.


The only breakthroughs needed are storage, transmission, a plan, and
a way to remove the shackles of the mind.
The last, as always, is the most difficult challenge.

I got a kick out of his presentation though. It was obviously not to
a group of his peers in the scientific
community. Well done, but if that presentation had been given at a
technical convention it would
have been met with multiple challenges and hot debates from the
audience, not a standing ovation.

He is an entrepreneur, and his audience was investors.
Bill Gates has kicked in $15m.
Whether his approach is the best will be found out in the field.
Others are taking different approaches.
I did notice one nation publicized a wind energy plan, and has already
put it in motion.
Ethiopia. With Chinese aid.
Apparently the Ethiopians and Chinese are more forward leaning than the
run-of-the-mill American skeptic.
Damn, what happened to our can-do spirit on big things?
Seems this country is now full of can't-do political hacks.
If that doesn't change, most of the world will **** on us.
Rightfully so.

In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...


Interesting presentation but storage is not the primary challenge.
Generation is the challenge.


No. Storage and transmission are the main challenges.


"Nevada has the highest solar energy potential in the nation and is
already the number one state in per capita solar energy production. The
DOE estimates that 100 square miles of Nevada land could supply all U.S.
electricity needs with current (~10%) commercial efficiency rates. With
over 250 days of sunshine a year, Nevada is looking forward to a bright
solar future."

You can find similar all over the net. But the "100 square miles" is
wrong. Should read "100 miles square," which is 10,000 square miles.
That's about .0025 of U.S total square miles.
But solar panel efficiency is already about twice the 10% mentioned, so
that already halves the space needed. Things are moving fast in that
area.
Practically, the solar farms would be spread in many places over areas
with good sunshine.
What's lacking is storage, transmission, and a plan.
Same with wind, which also reduces the footprint of solar.


The only viable alternative to oil and other fossil fuel energy
generation is nuclear until some other
major breakthough is discovered.


The only breakthroughs needed are storage, transmission, a plan, and
a way to remove the shackles of the mind.
The last, as always, is the most difficult challenge.

I got a kick out of his presentation though. It was obviously not to
a group of his peers in the scientific
community. Well done, but if that presentation had been given at a
technical convention it would
have been met with multiple challenges and hot debates from the
audience, not a standing ovation.

He is an entrepreneur, and his audience was investors.
Bill Gates has kicked in $15m.
Whether his approach is the best will be found out in the field.
Others are taking different approaches.
I did notice one nation publicized a wind energy plan, and has already
put it in motion.
Ethiopia. With Chinese aid.
Apparently the Ethiopians and Chinese are more forward leaning than the
run-of-the-mill American skeptic.
Damn, what happened to our can-do spirit on big things?
Seems this country is now full of can't-do political hacks.
If that doesn't change, most of the world will **** on us.
Rightfully so.



It's big oil that has tainted the minds of the head in the sand set.