On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:10:42 -0700, "Califbill" wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Monday, September 17, 2012 11:45:46 AM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote:

Smart meters isn't a smart grid system.

It is a key element of the smart grid vision.

http://www.smartgridnews.com/artman/publish/Technologies_Metering/

"Smart meter initiatives around the country in recent years have proven the
concept. They are cost-effective and maximize energy efficiency, leading
many governments to mandate advanced metering. Today a small fraction of
U.S. meters are smart, but the segment is expected to grow between 15
percent and 20 percent annually."


------------------------------------------------
We have smart meters here. Most people do not like them as their power
bills went up 20-30%. I think the reason the utilities love them is it
calculates power usage better. With all the cell phone and computer low

Or it was simply programmed to overbill.. It's not a matter of calibration, when the
manufacturers intentionally allow features to be activated that will overbill the
customers.

voltage transformers in a house the power factor is wrong for great billing.
The power passes without being registered as a big percentage is mostly
inductive and the power factor designed in to a standard meter will not

The DC rectifiers on modern power supplies make them act more like capacitive loads..

record a lot of the energy used.

I doubt your claims..

http://www.popsci.com/diy/gallery/20...ter-dissection


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Working_of...e_energy_meter
"One coil is connected in such a way that it produces a magnetic flux in proportion to the
voltage and the other produces a magnetic flux in proportion to the current. The field of
the voltage coil is delayed by 90 degrees using a lag coil. [1]This produces eddy currents
in the disc and the effect is such that a force is exerted on the disc in proportion to
the product of the instantaneous current and voltage. A permanent magnet exerts an
opposing force proportional to the speed of rotation of the disc - this acts as a brake
which causes the disc to stop spinning when power stops being drawn rather than allowing
it to spin faster and faster. This causes the disc to rotate at a speed proportional to
the power being used."

I would bet those old analogue meters over the long haul are far more robust and accurate
than these newer meters.. (Newer electronic meters have a projected lifespan of less than
10 years. Guess who's going to get the short end of the stick when they fail??)

"T. Keating" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:10:42 -0700, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Monday, September 17, 2012 11:45:46 AM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote:

Smart meters isn't a smart grid system.

It is a key element of the smart grid vision.

http://www.smartgridnews.com/artman/publish/Technologies_Metering/

"Smart meter initiatives around the country in recent years have proven the
concept. They are cost-effective and maximize energy efficiency, leading
many governments to mandate advanced metering. Today a small fraction of
U.S. meters are smart, but the segment is expected to grow between 15
percent and 20 percent annually."


------------------------------------------------
We have smart meters here. Most people do not like them as their power
bills went up 20-30%. I think the reason the utilities love them is it
calculates power usage better. With all the cell phone and computer low

Or it was simply programmed to overbill.. It's not a matter of
calibration, when the
manufacturers intentionally allow features to be activated that will
overbill the
customers.

voltage transformers in a house the power factor is wrong for great
billing.
The power passes without being registered as a big percentage is mostly
inductive and the power factor designed in to a standard meter will not

The DC rectifiers on modern power supplies make them act more like
capacitive loads..

record a lot of the energy used.

I doubt your claims..

http://www.popsci.com/diy/gallery/20...ter-dissection


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Working_of...e_energy_meter
"One coil is connected in such a way that it produces a magnetic flux in
proportion to the
voltage and the other produces a magnetic flux in proportion to the current.
The field of
the voltage coil is delayed by 90 degrees using a lag coil. [1]This produces
eddy currents
in the disc and the effect is such that a force is exerted on the disc in
proportion to
the product of the instantaneous current and voltage. A permanent magnet
exerts an
opposing force proportional to the speed of rotation of the disc - this acts
as a brake
which causes the disc to stop spinning when power stops being drawn rather
than allowing
it to spin faster and faster. This causes the disc to rotate at a speed
proportional to
the power being used."

I would bet those old analogue meters over the long haul are far more robust
and accurate
than these newer meters.. (Newer electronic meters have a projected
lifespan of less than
10 years. Guess who's going to get the short end of the stick when they
fail??)


-------------------------

Look at an old meter and look at the power factor it uses. Most I have seen
state the factor. The problem with fully capacitive or inductive loads is
the the voltage is 90 degrees out of phase with the current. So when
maximum current is flowing the voltage is zero. Multiply the two numbers
and what do you get?

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 17:17:48 -0700, "Califbill" wrote:

"T. Keating" wrote in message
.. .

On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:10:42 -0700, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Monday, September 17, 2012 11:45:46 AM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote:

Smart meters isn't a smart grid system.

It is a key element of the smart grid vision.

http://www.smartgridnews.com/artman/publish/Technologies_Metering/

"Smart meter initiatives around the country in recent years have proven the
concept. They are cost-effective and maximize energy efficiency, leading
many governments to mandate advanced metering. Today a small fraction of
U.S. meters are smart, but the segment is expected to grow between 15
percent and 20 percent annually."


------------------------------------------------
We have smart meters here. Most people do not like them as their power
bills went up 20-30%. I think the reason the utilities love them is it
calculates power usage better. With all the cell phone and computer low

Or it was simply programmed to overbill.. It's not a matter of
calibration, when the
manufacturers intentionally allow features to be activated that will
overbill the
customers.

voltage transformers in a house the power factor is wrong for great
billing.
The power passes without being registered as a big percentage is mostly
inductive and the power factor designed in to a standard meter will not

The DC rectifiers on modern power supplies make them act more like
capacitive loads..

record a lot of the energy used.

I doubt your claims..

http://www.popsci.com/diy/gallery/20...ter-dissection


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Working_of...e_energy_meter
"One coil is connected in such a way that it produces a magnetic flux in
proportion to the
voltage and the other produces a magnetic flux in proportion to the current.
The field of
the voltage coil is delayed by 90 degrees using a lag coil. [1]This produces
eddy currents
in the disc and the effect is such that a force is exerted on the disc in
proportion to
the product of the instantaneous current and voltage. A permanent magnet
exerts an
opposing force proportional to the speed of rotation of the disc - this acts
as a brake
which causes the disc to stop spinning when power stops being drawn rather
than allowing
it to spin faster and faster. This causes the disc to rotate at a speed
proportional to
the power being used."

I would bet those old analogue meters over the long haul are far more robust
and accurate
than these newer meters.. (Newer electronic meters have a projected
lifespan of less than
10 years. Guess who's going to get the short end of the stick when they
fail??)


-------------------------

Look at an old meter and look at the power factor it uses. Most I have seen
state the factor.

not in my neck of the woods.. They may list # of phases, voltage, calibration constant.
but not power factor (since an analog multiplier works at all power factors).

The problem with fully capacitive or inductive loads is
the the voltage is 90 degrees out of phase with the current. So when
maximum current is flowing the voltage is zero. Multiply the two numbers
and what do you get?

zero.. But then again.. no power is flowing.. P=I * V ... thus no measurement(which would
be the correct way to measure power consumed)..

If the load is purely reactive(PF=0).. all the energy is returned, but from my research, a
large number of these new meters will double bill the customers for the power returned
form purely reactive loads.. (door bell transformers, a/c transformers, etc)..

Same goes for partially loaded inductive motors.. (a lie and a double billing for unused,
returned energy.)

"T. Keating" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 17:17:48 -0700, "Califbill"
wrote:

"T. Keating" wrote in message
.. .

On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:10:42 -0700, "Califbill"

wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Monday, September 17, 2012 11:45:46 AM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote:

Smart meters isn't a smart grid system.

It is a key element of the smart grid vision.

http://www.smartgridnews.com/artman/publish/Technologies_Metering/

"Smart meter initiatives around the country in recent years have proven
the
concept. They are cost-effective and maximize energy efficiency, leading
many governments to mandate advanced metering. Today a small fraction of
U.S. meters are smart, but the segment is expected to grow between 15
percent and 20 percent annually."


------------------------------------------------
We have smart meters here. Most people do not like them as their power
bills went up 20-30%. I think the reason the utilities love them is it
calculates power usage better. With all the cell phone and computer low

Or it was simply programmed to overbill.. It's not a matter of
calibration, when the
manufacturers intentionally allow features to be activated that will
overbill the
customers.

voltage transformers in a house the power factor is wrong for great
billing.
The power passes without being registered as a big percentage is mostly
inductive and the power factor designed in to a standard meter will not

The DC rectifiers on modern power supplies make them act more like
capacitive loads..

record a lot of the energy used.

I doubt your claims..

http://www.popsci.com/diy/gallery/20...ter-dissection


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Working_of...e_energy_meter
"One coil is connected in such a way that it produces a magnetic flux in
proportion to the
voltage and the other produces a magnetic flux in proportion to the
current.
The field of
the voltage coil is delayed by 90 degrees using a lag coil. [1]This
produces
eddy currents
in the disc and the effect is such that a force is exerted on the disc in
proportion to
the product of the instantaneous current and voltage. A permanent magnet
exerts an
opposing force proportional to the speed of rotation of the disc - this
acts
as a brake
which causes the disc to stop spinning when power stops being drawn rather
than allowing
it to spin faster and faster. This causes the disc to rotate at a speed
proportional to
the power being used."

I would bet those old analogue meters over the long haul are far more
robust
and accurate
than these newer meters.. (Newer electronic meters have a projected
lifespan of less than
10 years. Guess who's going to get the short end of the stick when they
fail??)


-------------------------

Look at an old meter and look at the power factor it uses. Most I have
seen
state the factor.

not in my neck of the woods.. They may list # of phases, voltage,
calibration constant.
but not power factor (since an analog multiplier works at all power
factors).

The problem with fully capacitive or inductive loads is
the the voltage is 90 degrees out of phase with the current. So when
maximum current is flowing the voltage is zero. Multiply the two numbers
and what do you get?

zero.. But then again.. no power is flowing.. P=I * V ... thus no
measurement(which would
be the correct way to measure power consumed)..

If the load is purely reactive(PF=0).. all the energy is returned, but from
my research, a
large number of these new meters will double bill the customers for the
power returned
form purely reactive loads.. (door bell transformers, a/c transformers,
etc)..

Same goes for partially loaded inductive motors.. (a lie and a double
billing for unused,
returned energy.)


--------------------------------
You still use power, it just is not registered by the present meter. I can
weld a lot, but the power bill does not seem to increase a lot when I am
playing in the garage.