On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:36:15 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them.

===

Is that state law? Sounds like restraint of trade to me. Someone
should challenge it in court.

On 2/21/2013 8:10 PM, Wayne B wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:36:15 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them.

===

Is that state law? Sounds like restraint of trade to me. Someone
should challenge it in court.


They passed the laws based on the pretense that they don't want to put
gas into unknown equipment. It's inaccurate to say you can't shop
around, you can but to switch you have to get the new folks to bring in
their own tanks and usually that either costs, or means a contract...

"Wayne B" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:36:15 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only
the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them.

===

Is that state law? Sounds like restraint of trade to me. Someone
should challenge it in court.

==========================

I really don't know if it's a state law or just a policy of the
propane suppliers. I am sure the concern is liability.

To the best of my knowledge the same is (or was) true in Florida. We
had a propane powered spa heater in one of the houses down there and
when I called a supplier to fill it he told me he couldn't unless he
installed a tank provided by him. I've never investigated buying our
own tanks as Harry mentioned but again, we really don't use enough
propane up here to make it an issue.

I had a friend who lived on Long Island who installed a propane heater
for his pool and then regretted it as he watched his tank being filled
weekly.
When we put our pool in here in MA, I went for an electric heater.
It's big (150,000 BTU heat pump) but we only use it to initially get
the water temp up in the spring and then later in the fall to extend
the pool use a bit. Most of the time it is off.

When they were putting the pool in, the electrical contractor was
trying to sell us a whole house, propane powered generator. He said
we could tie it into the 100 gallon tank we have for the garage
heater. He ran all the wiring for it but, after thinking about it,
I elected to hold off on it. That was 7 years ago. The number of
times we have been without power for any extended period of time in
the last 7 years just doesn't justify the cost of a huge generator
like that, plus it would also go through propane fast.

The longest period we've gone without power was for 3 days and that
was two weeks ago during the "blizzard". Even if we had the big
generator, we would not have been able to get more propane for it if
it ran low because nobody could drive anywhere due to the fallen trees
and power lines. We got by fine using the little Honda EU2000i. I
ran power to a refrigerator, a couple of lights and to the furnace.
The little generator worked great and It used a total of about 6
gallons of gasoline over the 3 day period. The furnace, circulating
pump and a couple of booster fans only draws 5.6 amps according to my
clamp-on ammeter. A refrigerator only draws 2 amps or less in normal
operation (compressor only). The little Honda maxes out at about
13.4 amps (continuous duty and a peak of 16.7 amps for starting
currents, etc.) so it had no problem running a refrigerator and a
couple of those new type lights. The only time it was really loaded
was when the refrigerator went into a defrost cycle when the refrig
draws about 6 amps, but that only happens once a day. If I noticed
it, I just unplugged the furnace for that period of time. Most of the
time it ran at the low RPM (Eco mode) level. It would run for 9
hours on a fill-up of a gallon of gas.

I also just found out that you can purchase a special fuel cap for it
that allows you to connect it to an auxiliary fuel tank (looks like a
fuel tank for a small outboard motor). That would give you a six
gallon capacity and it could run continuously for days.

On 2/21/13 9:38 PM, Eisboch wrote:


"Wayne B" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:36:15 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them.

===

Is that state law? Sounds like restraint of trade to me. Someone
should challenge it in court.

==========================

I really don't know if it's a state law or just a policy of the propane
suppliers. I am sure the concern is liability.

To the best of my knowledge the same is (or was) true in Florida. We
had a propane powered spa heater in one of the houses down there and
when I called a supplier to fill it he told me he couldn't unless he
installed a tank provided by him. I've never investigated buying our
own tanks as Harry mentioned but again, we really don't use enough
propane up here to make it an issue.

I had a friend who lived on Long Island who installed a propane heater
for his pool and then regretted it as he watched his tank being filled
weekly.
When we put our pool in here in MA, I went for an electric heater. It's
big (150,000 BTU heat pump) but we only use it to initially get the
water temp up in the spring and then later in the fall to extend the
pool use a bit. Most of the time it is off.

When they were putting the pool in, the electrical contractor was trying
to sell us a whole house, propane powered generator. He said we could
tie it into the 100 gallon tank we have for the garage heater. He ran
all the wiring for it but, after thinking about it, I elected to hold
off on it. That was 7 years ago. The number of times we have been
without power for any extended period of time in the last 7 years just
doesn't justify the cost of a huge generator like that, plus it would
also go through propane fast.

The longest period we've gone without power was for 3 days and that was
two weeks ago during the "blizzard". Even if we had the big generator,
we would not have been able to get more propane for it if it ran low
because nobody could drive anywhere due to the fallen trees and power
lines. We got by fine using the little Honda EU2000i. I ran power
to a refrigerator, a couple of lights and to the furnace. The little
generator worked great and It used a total of about 6 gallons of
gasoline over the 3 day period. The furnace, circulating pump and a
couple of booster fans only draws 5.6 amps according to my clamp-on
ammeter. A refrigerator only draws 2 amps or less in normal operation
(compressor only). The little Honda maxes out at about 13.4 amps
(continuous duty and a peak of 16.7 amps for starting currents, etc.)
so it had no problem running a refrigerator and a couple of those new
type lights. The only time it was really loaded was when the
refrigerator went into a defrost cycle when the refrig draws about 6
amps, but that only happens once a day. If I noticed it, I just
unplugged the furnace for that period of time. Most of the time it ran
at the low RPM (Eco mode) level. It would run for 9 hours on a
fill-up of a gallon of gas.

I also just found out that you can purchase a special fuel cap for it
that allows you to connect it to an auxiliary fuel tank (looks like a
fuel tank for a small outboard motor). That would give you a six
gallon capacity and it could run continuously for days.


We're still "anticipating" the first serious power outage down here
since the installation of our backup generator. We've had two short-term
outages of a couple of minutes each, and the generator operated
nominally each time.

When we switched from one propane dealer to another, the new dealer sent
his plumber out to check the valves and look over what little of the
tank is out of the ground. Apparently, all was ok.

Unfortunately, "life as we know it" ceases with a power outage, since
we're on a well. We have bottled water for drinking, but without water
to wash up, flush toilets, et cetera, you might as well mosey on over to
a motel if you are facing an outage that might run more than two days.

Several of our neighbors got a "deal" on 10,000 watt generators on
wheels and jury-rigged hookups to their circuit breaker boxes, and these
work ok but the hookups look scary to me. Also, apparently they cannot
run their heat pumps off these units because of the start-up power
requirements. This is way over my non-electrician pay grade.

"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
...


Unfortunately, "life as we know it" ceases with a power outage, since
we're on a well. We have bottled water for drinking, but without water
to wash up, flush toilets, et cetera, you might as well mosey on over
to
a motel if you are facing an outage that might run more than two days.

Several of our neighbors got a "deal" on 10,000 watt generators on
wheels and jury-rigged hookups to their circuit breaker boxes, and
these
work ok but the hookups look scary to me. Also, apparently they cannot
run their heat pumps off these units because of the start-up power
requirements. This is way over my non-electrician pay grade.

-----------------------------------------------

During Hurricane Wilma (while we still had a house in Florida) I had
purchased a 12,500 watt "portable" contractor type generator and
installed a transfer switch to the power panel. We also had well
water there with a 220 volt pump and electric hot water heater. Since
the little Honda doesn't generate 220 volts, I figured we'd be all
set. When the power was lost, I fired up the big generator and
quickly learned how much fuel it went through during the first day and
how noisy the damn thing was. Not knowing how long the power would
be out (turned out to be over a week), I hooked up the little Honda,
just for a refrig, couple of lights, a TV and the Direct TV box.

In the mornings, I'd fire up the big generator for about an hour or so
to take a hot shower. We had an accumulator on the well water
system, so it was good for several toilet flushes without power. I'd
run it again for a half hour in the evening to recharge the
accumulator. Running the big generator this way was sufficient for
the water issue. I also fired up one of two A/C units, just to see
how the big generator handled it. It was fine, but really not worth
the fuel burn since it was November and not all that hot or humid.

The Honda ran 24 hours a day for the 7 or 8 days until commercial
power was restored. The next summer is when we had a pool installed
at the house in MA. The contractors used the Honda every day that
summer and part of the next to power the stone saw they were using
for cutting the bluestone. By that time, I figured the dusty Honda
was probably pretty much worn out and I put it away and forgot about
it. It sat unused, with stale gas in it for the next 6 years until we
had a storm and lost power for several hours. I dug it out and much
to my surprise, it fired up after a few pulls and ran fine. As
mentioned before, I used it again two weeks ago and it ran non-stop
(other than refueling twice a day) for the three day outage. I am
really impressed with these little generators. When this one finally
dies, I'll probably replace it with the EU3000i model and get the
adaptor for an external gas tank.
I've calculated all the current draw we'd require to heat the house,
run a couple of refrigerators and some lights. The EU3000i will
handle it fine.

On 2/22/13 8:02 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
...


Unfortunately, "life as we know it" ceases with a power outage, since
we're on a well. We have bottled water for drinking, but without water
to wash up, flush toilets, et cetera, you might as well mosey on over to
a motel if you are facing an outage that might run more than two days.

Several of our neighbors got a "deal" on 10,000 watt generators on
wheels and jury-rigged hookups to their circuit breaker boxes, and these
work ok but the hookups look scary to me. Also, apparently they cannot
run their heat pumps off these units because of the start-up power
requirements. This is way over my non-electrician pay grade.

-----------------------------------------------

During Hurricane Wilma (while we still had a house in Florida) I had
purchased a 12,500 watt "portable" contractor type generator and
installed a transfer switch to the power panel. We also had well water
there with a 220 volt pump and electric hot water heater. Since the
little Honda doesn't generate 220 volts, I figured we'd be all set.
When the power was lost, I fired up the big generator and quickly
learned how much fuel it went through during the first day and how noisy
the damn thing was. Not knowing how long the power would be out
(turned out to be over a week), I hooked up the little Honda, just for
a refrig, couple of lights, a TV and the Direct TV box.

In the mornings, I'd fire up the big generator for about an hour or so
to take a hot shower. We had an accumulator on the well water system,
so it was good for several toilet flushes without power. I'd run it
again for a half hour in the evening to recharge the accumulator.
Running the big generator this way was sufficient for the water issue.
I also fired up one of two A/C units, just to see how the big generator
handled it. It was fine, but really not worth the fuel burn since it
was November and not all that hot or humid.

The Honda ran 24 hours a day for the 7 or 8 days until commercial power
was restored. The next summer is when we had a pool installed at the
house in MA. The contractors used the Honda every day that summer and
part of the next to power the stone saw they were using for cutting the
bluestone. By that time, I figured the dusty Honda was probably pretty
much worn out and I put it away and forgot about it. It sat unused,
with stale gas in it for the next 6 years until we had a storm and lost
power for several hours. I dug it out and much to my surprise, it
fired up after a few pulls and ran fine. As mentioned before, I used
it again two weeks ago and it ran non-stop (other than refueling twice a
day) for the three day outage. I am really impressed with these
little generators. When this one finally dies, I'll probably replace
it with the EU3000i model and get the adaptor for an external gas tank.
I've calculated all the current draw we'd require to heat the house, run
a couple of refrigerators and some lights. The EU3000i will handle it
fine.





According to Generac, a 17KW unit burns 2.57 gallons of propane an hour
at full load and 1.30 gallons at half load. Half load or less is the
most common running speed.

24 hours of operation at 1.3 gallons an hour...that's about 31 gallons a
day times, let's say, $3.00 a gallon...that's about $100 a day, which,
even in these parts, will barely get you a hotel room if you can find a
vacancy. The reality is, most of the time a household generator will
running at far less than half speed.

We seriously considered a wheeled generator, but the power comes into
the house on the far side away from the garage, and that means stumbling
around in the dark or in the rain or in the dark and rain or snow or
whatever, pushing the unit across the yard and plugging it in in similar
circumstances, et cetera. A couple of feet of snow in the yard and the
unit would stay in the garage. Had the power come into the house outside
the garage, with the panels in the garage, a wheeled generator would
have been just fine.





--
I'm a *Liberal* because I knew the militant christian fundamentalist
racist militaristic xenophobic corporate oligarchy wasn't going to work
for me.

In article ,
says...

On 2/21/2013 8:10 PM, Wayne B wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:36:15 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them.

===

Is that state law? Sounds like restraint of trade to me. Someone
should challenge it in court.


They passed the laws based on the pretense that they don't want to put
gas into unknown equipment. It's inaccurate to say you can't shop
around, you can but to switch you have to get the new folks to bring in
their own tanks and usually that either costs, or means a contract...

But YOU said that Harry was lying about his propane cost!!!!

"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

On 2/22/13 8:02 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
...


Unfortunately, "life as we know it" ceases with a power outage,
since
we're on a well. We have bottled water for drinking, but without
water
to wash up, flush toilets, et cetera, you might as well mosey on
over to
a motel if you are facing an outage that might run more than two
days.

Several of our neighbors got a "deal" on 10,000 watt generators on
wheels and jury-rigged hookups to their circuit breaker boxes, and
these
work ok but the hookups look scary to me. Also, apparently they
cannot
run their heat pumps off these units because of the start-up power
requirements. This is way over my non-electrician pay grade.

-----------------------------------------------

During Hurricane Wilma (while we still had a house in Florida) I
had
purchased a 12,500 watt "portable" contractor type generator and
installed a transfer switch to the power panel. We also had well
water
there with a 220 volt pump and electric hot water heater. Since the
little Honda doesn't generate 220 volts, I figured we'd be all set.
When the power was lost, I fired up the big generator and quickly
learned how much fuel it went through during the first day and how
noisy
the damn thing was. Not knowing how long the power would be out
(turned out to be over a week), I hooked up the little Honda, just
for
a refrig, couple of lights, a TV and the Direct TV box.

In the mornings, I'd fire up the big generator for about an hour or
so
to take a hot shower. We had an accumulator on the well water
system,
so it was good for several toilet flushes without power. I'd run it
again for a half hour in the evening to recharge the accumulator.
Running the big generator this way was sufficient for the water
issue.
I also fired up one of two A/C units, just to see how the big
generator
handled it. It was fine, but really not worth the fuel burn since
it
was November and not all that hot or humid.

The Honda ran 24 hours a day for the 7 or 8 days until commercial
power
was restored. The next summer is when we had a pool installed at
the
house in MA. The contractors used the Honda every day that summer
and
part of the next to power the stone saw they were using for cutting
the
bluestone. By that time, I figured the dusty Honda was probably
pretty
much worn out and I put it away and forgot about it. It sat unused,
with stale gas in it for the next 6 years until we had a storm and
lost
power for several hours. I dug it out and much to my surprise, it
fired up after a few pulls and ran fine. As mentioned before, I
used
it again two weeks ago and it ran non-stop (other than refueling
twice a
day) for the three day outage. I am really impressed with these
little generators. When this one finally dies, I'll probably
replace
it with the EU3000i model and get the adaptor for an external gas
tank.
I've calculated all the current draw we'd require to heat the house,
run
a couple of refrigerators and some lights. The EU3000i will handle
it
fine.





According to Generac, a 17KW unit burns 2.57 gallons of propane an
hour
at full load and 1.30 gallons at half load. Half load or less is the
most common running speed.

24 hours of operation at 1.3 gallons an hour...that's about 31 gallons
a
day times, let's say, $3.00 a gallon...that's about $100 a day, which,
even in these parts, will barely get you a hotel room if you can find
a
vacancy. The reality is, most of the time a household generator will
running at far less than half speed.

We seriously considered a wheeled generator, but the power comes into
the house on the far side away from the garage, and that means
stumbling
around in the dark or in the rain or in the dark and rain or snow or
whatever, pushing the unit across the yard and plugging it in in
similar
circumstances, et cetera. A couple of feet of snow in the yard and the
unit would stay in the garage. Had the power come into the house
outside
the garage, with the panels in the garage, a wheeled generator would
have been just fine.


--------------------------------------

I was just checking current prices for a whole house generator. The
contractor had recommended one in the 17Kw to 20Kw range. At the time
(back in 2006) he quoted a little over $8k for a propane powered one,
installed. Prices must have come down since, because I see you can
get a Generac 17Kw for under $4K. Installation can't make up the
difference in price, I don't think, especially when all the
underground power leads exist from outside to the power panel. I had
that installed during the pool installation since the yard was all dug
up anyway.

Must have been a union contractor. :-)

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 21:10:39 -0400, Wayne B wrote:

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:36:15 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them.

===

Is that state law? Sounds like restraint of trade to me. Someone
should challenge it in court.

The same is true in Virginia. My daughter uses gas. When she threatened to switch suppliers, her
company decided it had been charging her too much and gave her a refund of over $2000.

Salmonbait
--

"That's not a baby kicking, dear Bride, it's just a fetus!"

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:20:49 -0500, J Herring
wrote:

The same is true in Virginia. My daughter uses gas. When she threatened to switch suppliers, her
company decided it had been charging her too much and gave her a refund of over $2000.

=======

With wholesale prices at around $1/gal, anyone paying much over $2/gal
(+tax) is paying too much and should negotiate for a better deal.