On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:15:58 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"J Herring" wrote in message
.. .

On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 06:47:36 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

2. Require mandatory safety training for issuance of the permit.
The training should be more extensive than a single 5 hour session.
I was very surprised at the sketchy training required in MA in
order to obtain a LTC. It should be much longer and cover more.


My wife just completed a five hour course in gun safety and firing.
How much more time should be
spent in telling a person that every gun is loaded, point only down
range, and don't put finger on
the trigger until ready to shoot.

What kinds of things would you add to the course that should require
a lot more time.

-----------------------------------------------------

Much more time in handling, loading, firing and cleaning of different
popular gun types.
Much more on general awareness of things like how far a round travels
for different gun types.
How to properly and safely "carry".
How to safely deal with jammed guns or "stovepipes".
Review of pertinent laws related to gun ownership and transfers.
Much more range time and instruction, especially for those who are new
to guns.

Finally, there should be a test. A real one, not a phony self
correct, self grade type thing like the one I took.

I can probably think up a few dozen more.

My oldest son and his wife both received their LTC in Massachusetts
before relocating to South Carolina.
Neither of them had any experience at all with guns. They took a
course that lasted for a month, meeting two or three times a week. 20
hours of instruction, then they spent 3 Saturdays at a range shooting
under instruction for a couple of hours each day.

When I took the course, it was one morning ... four hours of
"instruction" and one hour at the range. He covered the basics that
any idiot would know. The state has a checklist of items to be
covered, from handling guns to road rage. In many cases the
instructor just read the checklist off to us so he could claim he
covered them all.

I've learned more by reading by myself and from talking to experienced
gun owners at the range I belong to.


Whoops - she was taught how to clear a jam.


Salmonbait

--
'Name-calling'...the liberals' last resort.

On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 22:44:43 -0400, Wayne B wrote:

On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 18:30:11 -0400, J Herring
wrote:

My wife just completed a five hour course in gun safety and firing. How much more time should be
spent in telling a person that every gun is loaded, point only down range, and don't put finger on
the trigger until ready to shoot.

What kinds of things would you add to the course that should require a lot more time.

==========

Clearing jams, inspection, cleaning, unloading. A high percentage of
accidental discharges occur during one of those four operations.

From there you could go on to strategies for developing speed and
accuracy, range practice, different types of guns, etc.

She's got me for the cleaning. And, if the gun is not loaded, then the cleaning is not a safety
issue. She was taught how to check for a round in the chamber or in the cylinder.

Could she have been taught lots more? Sure - but she's not being taught to be an Infantryman. She's
being taught how to safely use a firearm. She's sure not worried about speed or different types of
guns. She needed the instruction on the guns we have - not someone's else's AR15.


Salmonbait

--
'Name-calling'...the liberals' last resort.

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 19:48:05 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"JustWaitAFrekinMinute" wrote in message
...

On 3/28/2013 7:17 PM, Wayne B wrote:
On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 16:53:59 -0400, "F.O.A.D."
wrote:

Many good reasons there for finally getting rid of "state's
rights," and
having a uniform, national code, eh?

=====

So you would like to overturn the constitution and Bill of Rights??

It's important to remember that there is a reason for the way things
are.


Why do you think DHS is buying up all of the ammo, some 1.6 billion
with
a B rounds as well as armored vehicles, drones, and other hardware
until
now thought of as military gear, not "peace officer" gear?

---------------------------------------

Where did you hear that Scott? The DHS is *not* buying up "all" the
ammo.
The bulk of the ammo is being bought by private citizens in an
unrealistic belief and panic that the "government" is going to outlaw
it or make it unavailable. It's a bunch of BS.


Plug 'ammo shortage' into Google and read some of the articles. It's not all BS.


Salmonbait

--
'Name-calling'...the liberals' last resort.

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 16:48:04 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 12:58:28 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 15:19:30 -0400, wrote:


But states DO make laws.

Exactly and the 10th amendment protects the rights STATE laws convey.
That is why DOMA would be tossed as a 10th amendment issue.
New York recognized Edie's marriage and the federal government did
not, with no constitutional authority to regulate marriage in any way.

There are multiple issues with it, but it comes down to equal
protection. But, of course, you are a legal scolar, as well as a PhD
in physics, astrophysics, and metaphysics, so we all defer to you on
all subjects.

One would only have to pay attention in middle school to know more
than you.

So, what's your excuse?

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 16:47:08 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 12:56:38 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 14:57:25 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 10:44:58 -0700, Urin Asshole
wrote:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to
the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the
state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law
which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life,
liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any
person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The issue with DOMA is not the state making a law that infringes on
the right of a citizen, it is the state writing a law that gives the
citizen more rights and the federal government taking that right away.

It's denying rights on a FEDERAL level.. DOMA IS A FEDERAL LAW. Equal
Protection under the law. That's being denied. D'oh.

Which part of "No state shall make or enforce any law..." are you
having trouble with?

The 14th amendment is NOT about federal laws.


It's about equal protection. That's what it says. The states are not
allowing such protection. Which part of equal protection don't you
understand?

I understand that DOMA has nothing to do with STATES denying equal
protection.

Striking down DOMA means that the states can decide for themselves
about marriage. That was the case in other situations, and that will
be the case here.

Hence the 10th amendment.

Dickbrain... DOMA is a FEDERAL law.

"J Herring" wrote in message
...


Experience is a great teacher. You covered a lot of items there...many
of which she has no need to
know, like 'safely carry' (she's not), cleaning (which would have to
include disassembly), dealing
with jams (call the Range Safety guy), and 'much more range time and
instruction'. If she wants to
be a good shot with various weapons and be able to disassemble and
reassemble then perhaps you're
right. But, she certainly doesn't *need* all that to be comfortable
with loading and shooting a
weapon - safely. The pertinent laws were part of the class. She fired
a revolver (.38 Special) and
an M&P 9mm. She has no need to learn about a lot of different weapons
and ammunition.


----------------------------------------------

Well, we'll have to disagree. If you think your wife (or anyone for
that matter) "doesn't need" to know how to disassemble, clean, deal
with jams (just call the RSO ???? ... I can't believe you said that)
..... then I'll have to make sure I never visit the range she shoots
at.

I bought some .380 "Snap-Caps" and spent an hour or so trying to
intentionally cause a jam in both the Walther PPK/S and the S&W
Bodyguard. I bought them purposely because they often don't work well
in some gun models .... just like some manufacturer's live rounds
don't always work well with certain gun models. I succeeded with
the Walther, causing a Snap-Cap to become wedged and stuck in the
chamber and the next Snap-Cap round in the magazine to jam up and out
of place behind it. In this situation, the magazine could not be
released (it was also jammed) and holding the slide back and shaking
the gun or pushing at the jammed round would not clear it. I finally
managed to get the jammed magazine round out, release and remove the
clip, but the chambered Snap-Cap wouldn't drop out. It was jammed
solid within the barrel. Finally got it out by lightly tapping on
the "lead end" with one of my cleaning rods.

I did this because a similar jam occurred the first time I used that
gun, except it was with live ammo. It took two of us to clear it, one
holding the slide back as far as it would go (it wouldn't lock) and
the other pressing the magazine release button while tugging on the
bottom of the magazine at the same time.

I learned that the Walther doesn't like ammo manufactured by
Independence. Since then I buy Winchester, Remington or Federal and
have not had any problems.

So what if something like this happened to your wife "on the range"
and the RSO wasn't around?

"J Herring" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 19:48:05 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"JustWaitAFrekinMinute" wrote in message
...

On 3/28/2013 7:17 PM, Wayne B wrote:
On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 16:53:59 -0400, "F.O.A.D."
wrote:

Many good reasons there for finally getting rid of "state's
rights," and
having a uniform, national code, eh?

=====

So you would like to overturn the constitution and Bill of Rights??

It's important to remember that there is a reason for the way
things
are.


Why do you think DHS is buying up all of the ammo, some 1.6 billion
with
a B rounds as well as armored vehicles, drones, and other hardware
until
now thought of as military gear, not "peace officer" gear?

---------------------------------------

Where did you hear that Scott? The DHS is *not* buying up "all"
the
ammo.
The bulk of the ammo is being bought by private citizens in an
unrealistic belief and panic that the "government" is going to
outlaw
it or make it unavailable. It's a bunch of BS.


Plug 'ammo shortage' into Google and read some of the articles. It's
not all BS.


---------------------------------------------

I have no desire to get into a ****ing contest with Scott. He has a
habit of going into damage control mode following some post he makes
that people take exception to. In this case, the thread was about
the current ammunition shortage. He responds with, "Why do you
think DHS is buying up *all* the ammo, some 1.6 billion" .....
insinuating that *that* is the reason for the shortage. He then
provides a link to an article that doesn't support his statement at
all. Yes, the DHS is buying up to 1.6 billion rounds over the next 4
to 5 years, but that is *not* what has caused the current shortage, as
the article points out.

But now he's focusing on the 1.6 billion purchase as being the subject
of the thread. Whew.

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 20:40:44 -0400, wrote:


I would really like the government out of the marriage business
altogether. Marriage should be a church thing and all of the
government involvement should be by simple contract law.
Government regulation of marriage is really just church dogma,
legitimized at the point of a government gun. That is how we got to
outlawing gay marriage in the first place.

I agree with ths completely.

Why? You think marriages should be conducted by lawyers?
There's +1100 gov laws that take marital status into consideration.
You want that all changed, as Greg appears to want?
That's just radical libertarianism.
The only question at hand now in DOMA is whether it violates equal
protection. Of course it does. It was discriminatory and
unconstitutional from the getgo. Nothing new either. Laws and actions
denying equal protection to blacks, women, Japanese-Americans come to
mind. Those were also corrected.

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 17:45:29 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"J Herring" wrote in message
.. .


Experience is a great teacher. You covered a lot of items there...many
of which she has no need to
know, like 'safely carry' (she's not), cleaning (which would have to
include disassembly), dealing
with jams (call the Range Safety guy), and 'much more range time and
instruction'. If she wants to
be a good shot with various weapons and be able to disassemble and
reassemble then perhaps you're
right. But, she certainly doesn't *need* all that to be comfortable
with loading and shooting a
weapon - safely. The pertinent laws were part of the class. She fired
a revolver (.38 Special) and
an M&P 9mm. She has no need to learn about a lot of different weapons
and ammunition.


----------------------------------------------

Well, we'll have to disagree. If you think your wife (or anyone for
that matter) "doesn't need" to know how to disassemble, clean, deal
with jams (just call the RSO ???? ... I can't believe you said that)
.... then I'll have to make sure I never visit the range she shoots
at.

I bought some .380 "Snap-Caps" and spent an hour or so trying to
intentionally cause a jam in both the Walther PPK/S and the S&W
Bodyguard. I bought them purposely because they often don't work well
in some gun models .... just like some manufacturer's live rounds
don't always work well with certain gun models. I succeeded with
the Walther, causing a Snap-Cap to become wedged and stuck in the
chamber and the next Snap-Cap round in the magazine to jam up and out
of place behind it. In this situation, the magazine could not be
released (it was also jammed) and holding the slide back and shaking
the gun or pushing at the jammed round would not clear it. I finally
managed to get the jammed magazine round out, release and remove the
clip, but the chambered Snap-Cap wouldn't drop out. It was jammed
solid within the barrel. Finally got it out by lightly tapping on
the "lead end" with one of my cleaning rods.

I did this because a similar jam occurred the first time I used that
gun, except it was with live ammo. It took two of us to clear it, one
holding the slide back as far as it would go (it wouldn't lock) and
the other pressing the magazine release button while tugging on the
bottom of the magazine at the same time.

I learned that the Walther doesn't like ammo manufactured by
Independence. Since then I buy Winchester, Remington or Federal and
have not had any problems.

So what if something like this happened to your wife "on the range"
and the RSO wasn't around?



The ranges at which we shoot have extremely knowledgeable safety officers. And, she doesn't go to a
range without me. We have practiced with snap caps at home. She can disassemble the M&P 9 because I
taught her how to do so. For the instructor to have taught each student how to disassemble and clean
their own weapons would have been unreasonable.

Anytime my wife is shooting someplace besides a range, I'll be there. I don't expect her to be an
expert in firearms.


Salmonbait

--
'Name-calling'...the liberals' last resort.

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 17:45:29 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"J Herring" wrote in message
.. .


Experience is a great teacher. You covered a lot of items there...many
of which she has no need to
know, like 'safely carry' (she's not), cleaning (which would have to
include disassembly), dealing
with jams (call the Range Safety guy), and 'much more range time and
instruction'. If she wants to
be a good shot with various weapons and be able to disassemble and
reassemble then perhaps you're
right. But, she certainly doesn't *need* all that to be comfortable
with loading and shooting a
weapon - safely. The pertinent laws were part of the class. She fired
a revolver (.38 Special) and
an M&P 9mm. She has no need to learn about a lot of different weapons
and ammunition.


----------------------------------------------

Well, we'll have to disagree. If you think your wife (or anyone for
that matter) "doesn't need" to know how to disassemble, clean, deal
with jams (just call the RSO ???? ... I can't believe you said that)
.... then I'll have to make sure I never visit the range she shoots
at.

I bought some .380 "Snap-Caps" and spent an hour or so trying to
intentionally cause a jam in both the Walther PPK/S and the S&W
Bodyguard. I bought them purposely because they often don't work well
in some gun models .... just like some manufacturer's live rounds
don't always work well with certain gun models. I succeeded with
the Walther, causing a Snap-Cap to become wedged and stuck in the
chamber and the next Snap-Cap round in the magazine to jam up and out
of place behind it. In this situation, the magazine could not be
released (it was also jammed) and holding the slide back and shaking
the gun or pushing at the jammed round would not clear it. I finally
managed to get the jammed magazine round out, release and remove the
clip, but the chambered Snap-Cap wouldn't drop out. It was jammed
solid within the barrel. Finally got it out by lightly tapping on
the "lead end" with one of my cleaning rods.

I did this because a similar jam occurred the first time I used that
gun, except it was with live ammo. It took two of us to clear it, one
holding the slide back as far as it would go (it wouldn't lock) and
the other pressing the magazine release button while tugging on the
bottom of the magazine at the same time.

I learned that the Walther doesn't like ammo manufactured by
Independence. Since then I buy Winchester, Remington or Federal and
have not had any problems.

So what if something like this happened to your wife "on the range"
and the RSO wasn't around?



BTW, has your wife taken the course which teaches all the items you covered?


Salmonbait

--
'Name-calling'...the liberals' last resort.