Come on... I suppose you'd rather have the heavy industries
back, pumping their filth into the air around *your* home and
killing *your* kids.

Give me a break. Also, your assumption that automation
will eliminate jobs was debunked in the 50s. It's just not
true. Automation will eliminate *some* jobs, but others
are created. We need to be knowledge workers not laborers.

"Vito" wrote in message
...
Jonathan Ganz wrote:

Ultimately, the only way to improve the situation is for US
workers to be even more productive. ...

Unfortunately, it's not that simple.

The bottom line is what an item costs to produce, which includes labor
but many other costs we'd rather ignore. For example, our draconian
environmental statutes add more to production costs than does labor for
many industrial operations such as chrome plating. These regulations are
a major reason heavy industry has fled the U.S. Moreover, increasing
per-worker productivity requires automation which costs money and itself
puts people out of work. That new robomachine that allows one operator
to do the work of ten not only costs big bucks, which must be added to
the items it produces, but puts nine workers on the street. It may be
more profitable to move to a 3rd world country than raise the capital to
buy the new machine, especially if buying it means downsizing anyway.

Now consider what happens when productivity becomes so high that
everything is made by machines, without labor. Without jobs, nobody can
buy anything and without sales there are no profits and ...

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

Come on... I suppose you'd rather have the heavy industries
back, pumping their filth into the air around *your* home and
killing *your* kids.

Good news: I have no kids at home. Bad news: I've had to quit riding
motorcycles because of all the trucks spraying imported wet garbage up
and down the roads hereabouths. A nice chrome plating shop dumping a few
poisons would be more welcome but the mob isn't interested in chrome
shops. But that's beside the point, which is that if we want local
employers to be able to compete with foreign companies that don't have
to abide by our expensive laws then we'll have to tax imports to level
the playing field.

Give me a break.

OK, arm or leg? (c:

.... Also, your assumption that automation will eliminate jobs was debunked in the 50s.

Yup, by propagandists fighting communism. Yasee capitalism is a great
system but it will inevitably be killed by the same advancing technology
that gave it birth and then what. Some prefer Naziism, others Communism
and still others to stick their heads in the sand in denial. Me? I'm too
old to care.


It's just not true. Automation will eliminate *some* jobs, but others
are created. We need to be knowledge workers not laborers.

The flaw in your theory is that the jobs automation creates require ever
more intellegence and education than an ever growing part of the
population can provide. Not everyone can be a rocket scientist or MD
even if they wanted to. When I graduated from High School half the class
went to work at the Ford plant and the other half at the aircraft plant,
all earning enough to buy homes and raise families. Less than 1 in 10
went to college and most of them flunked out. Those factory jobs are now
done better and cheaper by machines. Ditto ever more "professional"
jobs. There was a big demand for EEs til large scale integration came
along. Then they became computer programmers, until high level languages
came along. Then they became unemployed. I guess they should have got
honest jobs as lawyers or ministers, right?

Of course there are still plenty of jobs for kids getting out of high
school today - at McDonalds and Wendys and Buggerking - but unless you
are in the top half of the population and motivated and financed enough
to get at least a BS don't expect to earn a living. Tomarrow ....

If you had an *average* 15 year old kid what would you encourage him/her
to do today?

If we want local employers to be more competitive,
we should allow them to fail or survive by their own
designs (with a bit of encouragement from the gov't).

Very good news... :-)

Good news: I have no kids at home. Bad news: I've had to quit riding
motorcycles because of all the trucks spraying imported wet garbage up
and down the roads hereabouths. A nice chrome plating shop dumping a few
poisons would be more welcome but the mob isn't interested in chrome
shops. But that's beside the point, which is that if we want local
employers to be able to compete with foreign companies that don't have
to abide by our expensive laws then we'll have to tax imports to level
the playing field.

I was thinking coffee break....

Give me a break.

OK, arm or leg? (c:

.... Also, your assumption that automation will eliminate jobs was
debunked in the 50s.

We're not currently using capitalism, so failure isn't really an option.

Yup, by propagandists fighting communism. Yasee capitalism is a great
system but it will inevitably be killed by the same advancing technology
that gave it birth and then what. Some prefer Naziism, others Communism
and still others to stick their heads in the sand in denial. Me? I'm too
old to care.


Not a flaw at all. One must constantly relearn and reeducate oneself
to remain valuable. What you did years ago and how you survived or
didn't isn't really related to professions or education today. Same goes
for me, but I have a science and literature education, which means I can
do most anything badly. :-}

Watch the lawyere crack... my mom's a lawyer and she's quite honest
and ethical, or so the stories go.

It's just not true. Automation will eliminate *some* jobs, but others
are created. We need to be knowledge workers not laborers.

The flaw in your theory is that the jobs automation creates require ever
more intellegence and education than an ever growing part of the
population can provide. Not everyone can be a rocket scientist or MD
even if they wanted to. When I graduated from High School half the class
went to work at the Ford plant and the other half at the aircraft plant,
all earning enough to buy homes and raise families. Less than 1 in 10
went to college and most of them flunked out. Those factory jobs are now
done better and cheaper by machines. Ditto ever more "professional"
jobs. There was a big demand for EEs til large scale integration came
along. Then they became computer programmers, until high level languages
came along. Then they became unemployed. I guess they should have got
honest jobs as lawyers or ministers, right?

A BS or a BA is still valuable not so much for the actual degree, but for
the testament to actually finishing something. That's a lot of what
employers
look for in new grads.
Of course there are still plenty of jobs for kids getting out of high
school today - at McDonalds and Wendys and Buggerking - but unless you
are in the top half of the population and motivated and financed enough
to get at least a BS don't expect to earn a living. Tomarrow ....

I would tell them to find something they love to do, something they're
really
interested in doing and pursue that. If they're unsure, then experiment with
different things when they get to college (no off-color or drug puns
intended).
I doesn't matter an iota what they pick, as long as they're motivated. If
it's
science or medicine, great. If it's being the best at repairing cars, that's
great
too. My mechanic works 3 days a week, 4-5 hours a day. He makes tons
of money.. if that's what motivates him, which I doubt. I think he's
motivated
by excellence.


If you had an *average* 15 year old kid what would you encourage him/her
to do today?

Throw a shoe into the machinery?

Vito wrote:

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

Ultimately, the only way to improve the situation is for US
workers to be even more productive. ...

Unfortunately, it's not that simple.

The bottom line is what an item costs to produce, which includes labor
but many other costs we'd rather ignore. For example, our draconian
environmental statutes add more to production costs than does labor for
many industrial operations such as chrome plating. These regulations are
a major reason heavy industry has fled the U.S. Moreover, increasing
per-worker productivity requires automation which costs money and itself
puts people out of work. That new robomachine that allows one operator
to do the work of ten not only costs big bucks, which must be added to
the items it produces, but puts nine workers on the street. It may be
more profitable to move to a 3rd world country than raise the capital to
buy the new machine, especially if buying it means downsizing anyway.

Now consider what happens when productivity becomes so high that
everything is made by machines, without labor. Without jobs, nobody can
buy anything and without sales there are no profits and ...

I believe it was Isaac Asimov who wrote a story about such a
world. In that world, poor people were forced to eat, drink, and
consume TVs, cars, clothes, etc,etc. A poor person was fat and
busy 'working' all day at destrying his appliances, clothes, etc,
while only the rich could hire people to consume their quota, and
had any liesure.

Until some po' folk decided to use robots to consume for him!

It's a little silly, but robotic production does imply that soon,
there will be no work for anyone!

That is where the redistribution of wealth, welfare, and the
service economy came from. Tax the robots, until they revolt?

The only reason there is any want anywhere in the world is
because some of those (most?) who run industry seem to think that
the way to 'win' is to either get richer than their niegbours, or
to make them all poorer by any way they can.

What value are huge numbers in a bank account?

Conspicuous consumption, overpowering competitive urges, and
status seeking is the real enemy.

Governmental departments are full of people motivated to
aggrandize their departments, and seek control over their
patrons. Tax and revenue departments are the same, even with
'free trade.' Screwing those you don't like becomes a sport for
some. Making people pay uneccessary tax is a feather in some
(dunce?) caps, on the same low par with racial discrimination.

True humility and service is the solution. A tiny home made
sailboat or land sailer in every garage, right next to the
chicken coop, could pacify the world. Status would come from
getting the most from the least. I favour roller skates and
'smart' umbrellas, or inflatable catamaran water skiis and an
inflated, semi-rigid wing sail, all built around a folding lawn
chair with led navigation lights and micro power personal
stereos.
Sell your tungsten stocks, now.

There should be no taxes paid, if all governments want to spend
on is war. Voter revolution and free universal health care are
the answer, under the guise of fair weights and measures and
purity laws. Tax rich businesses' profits, not poor people. Vive
liberty! Brainwash the young! The hand that rocks the cradle
rules the world! Women, this is all your fault, you should have
taken over the world long ago!

Well, maybe they did, and vanity rules clandestinely, blamed on
men, while women cultivate inheritances? Why DO women live
longer than men?

This thought is just a silly over extension of what should be
natural truth.

Outlaw lawns! Grow oats! A hydrogen balloon in every attic!
Solar cell and water preheater shingles on every roof! Insulate,
damn it! Evaporative air conditioners CAN replace trees! The
water cycle is the most important.

Ah! that felt good.

\
Bare it, and grin :-}
/

BTW, I just found out my new to me retriement mobile home cottage
mountainside back yard, never been logged, is about 1/5
evergreens, and most of those are hemlock. All those little
bushes are rare 'ground hemlock', supposedly the source for
taxol, an anti-cancer drug. It's the micro climate, rocky
mountain soil and river fog humidity, north east of a 500'
mountainette, I think. How much is a 2.5 foot butt hemlock tree
worth?


--
Terry K - My email address is MY PROPERTY, and is protected by
copyright legislation. Permission to reproduce it is
specifically denied for mass mailing and unrequested
solicitations. Reproduction or conveyance for any unauthorised
purpose is THEFT and PLAGIARISM. Abuse is Invasion of privacy
and harassment. Abusers may be prosecuted. -This notice footer
released to public domain. Spamspoof salad by spamchock -
SofDevCo

Vito wrote:

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

Come on... I suppose you'd rather have the heavy industries
back, pumping their filth into the air around *your* home and
killing *your* kids.

Good news: I have no kids at home. Bad news: I've had to quit riding
motorcycles because of all the trucks spraying imported wet garbage up
and down the roads hereabouths.

Wassat???

A nice chrome plating shop dumping a few
poisons would be more welcome but the mob isn't interested in chrome
shops. But that's beside the point, which is that if we want local
employers to be able to compete with foreign companies that don't have
to abide by our expensive laws then we'll have to tax imports to level
the playing field.

Only when it can be shown that the furrin mfgrs actually do so?
Innocent until proved guilty is the basis for all law, or there
is no law, just anarchy.

Give me a break.

OK, arm or leg? (c:

.... Also, your assumption that automation will eliminate jobs was debunked in the 50s.

Yup, by propagandists fighting communism. Yasee capitalism is a great
system but it will inevitably be killed by the same advancing technology
that gave it birth and then what. Some prefer Naziism, others Communism
and still others to stick their heads in the sand in denial. Me? I'm too
old to care.

It's just not true. Automation will eliminate *some* jobs, but others
are created. We need to be knowledge workers not laborers.

The flaw in your theory is that the jobs automation creates require ever
more intellegence and education than an ever growing part of the
population can provide. Not everyone can be a rocket scientist or MD
even if they wanted to. When I graduated from High School half the class
went to work at the Ford plant and the other half at the aircraft plant,
all earning enough to buy homes and raise families. Less than 1 in 10
went to college and most of them flunked out. Those factory jobs are now
done better and cheaper by machines. Ditto ever more "professional"
jobs. There was a big demand for EEs til large scale integration came
along. Then they became computer programmers, until high level languages
came along. Then they became unemployed. I guess they should have got
honest jobs as lawyers or ministers, right?

Of course there are still plenty of jobs for kids getting out of high
school today - at McDonalds and Wendys and Buggerking - but unless you
are in the top half of the population and motivated and financed enough
to get at least a BS don't expect to earn a living. Tomarrow ....

If you had an *average* 15 year old kid what would you encourage him/her
to do today?

Get elected? No, seriously, how about elder care, since most
kids don't want to baby sit any more than their parents did?

Form a housing co-op, squat in the woods, get off the grid, and
grow vegetables and chickens! Make great arts and crafts. The
rich will always appreciate well made local crafts, including
entertainment. Outlaw recorded music broadcasts!

Sow, Reap.

--
Terry K - My email address is MY PROPERTY, and is protected by
copyright legislation. Permission to reproduce it is
specifically denied for mass mailing and unrequested
solicitations. Reproduction or conveyance for any unauthorised
purpose is THEFT and PLAGIARISM. Abuse is Invasion of privacy
and harassment. Abusers may be prosecuted. -This notice footer
released to public domain. Spamspoof salad by spamchock -
SofDevCo

Terry Spragg wrote:


The only reason there is any want anywhere in the world is
because some of those (most?) who run industry seem to think that
the way to 'win' is to either get richer than their niegbours, or
to make them all poorer by any way they can.

Ahem... which world would that be? Over here in the real world, there is
'want' because resources are limited.

DSK

If all the money (not material objects) was pooled and then divided by =
the world's population, what would the distribution look like? If =
everything was equalized how much would each individual own?

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

$2. Of course I'd be dishing out the dosh...

;-P


Cheers MC

katysails wrote:

If all the money (not material objects) was pooled and then divided by the world's population, what would the distribution look like? If everything was equalized how much would each individual own?

Hi katysails: Havn't seen you around for a long time. I'm seahag's brother in-law.

katysails wrote:

If all the money (not material objects) was pooled and then divided by the world's population, what would the distribution look like? If everything was equalized how much would each individual own?

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

--
Marine Worker, Composer, Artist
http://www.toad.net/~crm Check out my Galleries
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