On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 18:05:17 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

He's now been clean for almost a year and is a changed person. So am
I.

===

Bad story but it sounds like you handled it as well as it could have
been. Hope he stays on the wagon for the sake of all concerned.

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 19:29:22 -0400, JustWaitAFrekinMinute wrote:

On 4/27/2013 7:12 PM, Pro-Baby wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 18:05:17 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

On 4/27/13 4:50 PM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
...


In many states, if a licensed therapist determines a person is a
threat
to himself/herself or others, that person can be hospitalized for up
to
three days for a full-blown psychological exam. After the exam, a
judge
holds a hearing to determine if further hospitalization is
necessary. It
sort of works like that, except there aren't enough beds or decent
facilities to take care of those who need the help, and judges are
reluctant for that and other reasons to require long-term
hospitalization.

---------------------------------------

If the laws are anything like those in MA, the person would have to
either kill someone somehow or commit suicide before they would be
considered a threat to others or to themselves. Had a series of
long,
frustrated conversations with a state psychologist about this last
year.



That's pretty close. And once the dangerously mentally ill are in a
long-term facility, fund and staff shortages might get them released
too
early. In private hospitals, you're pretty much dumped out as soon as
your insurance is used up.

-----------------------------------------------------

Last summer I found myself involved in trying to get help for a family
member. It came to a head one weekend last July (after several
months of trying to convince him to get help) when he was caught by
the police on a beach after several witnesses reported him driving a
car in a reckless fashion. The police had him transported to the
hospital where he went through the standard de-tox period. He was
released the following morning, went home and started drinking again.
I happened to stop by his apartment to check up on him and found him
in the process of respiratory failure .... which is typically the
cause of death due to an overdose of alcohol. Called 911, and the
police and EMT's were dispatched. Meanwhile, I followed the
instructions of the 911 dispatcher to keep the person from choking.

At the recommendation of the police and fire department officials, I
requested that a physiological exam/interview be conducted at the end
of the de-tox period to establish grounds for a court petition for
involuntary commitment to a rehab facility as a back-up plan in the
event that the person continued to refuse help in the form of a
private, voluntary program. I had already made the necessary
arrangements for him to go to a private de-tox/rehab facility however,
by law, he had to agree to go voluntarily. He was still in a state of
total denial .... actually he wasn't capable of thinking period ....
but the law is the law. So, the court ordered rehab was my back-up
plan.

The interview was done and the psychologist called me. She first
asked me if I was aware of the person's blood alcohol levels on the
two consecutive days of de-tox treatment. I said, "no". She
informed me that the first day it was 350 and the second day it was
450. She then explained that anything over 350 is considered a
"lethal" dose.

She then informed me that based on the interview, she could not
recommend or support a court petition for involuntary commitment.
Her opinion was that he was not an "immediate threat" to himself or
to others.

I couldn't believe what she was saying. I asked her if consuming a
"lethal dose" of alcohol twice in one weekend and having to have the
police haul his car away to the pound after driving down the wrong
side of the street in a reckless fashion doesn't constitute threats to
himself or others, then what does? She told me that he would have
actually had to try to commit suicide or intentionally have to hurt
someone in order to pass the test of the law for involuntary
commitment.

We had a couple more discussions following that. She agreed to
schedule an appointment to interview him again. But meanwhile, I
had a bed reserved in a private facility and needed to somehow
convince him that he had to go before it became unavailable. There
was no time for a second "interview". So, I bluffed. I
basically told him he was going, one way or another. His choice was a
nice, pleasant, private facility on Cape Cod or a court ordered
facility within the confines of one of the state prisons. I had
already written a court petition and showed it to him. I didn't let
on that there was not much a chance it would be approved without the
state shrink's recommendation.

It worked. We hauled him off to the private place with him kicking
and screaming all the way, claiming he didn't need and didn't have a
"problem". Well, he did. Four days into their mandatory five day
de-tox period (before the rehab process starts) he had a withdrawal
seizure, fell on the floor and fractured his skull. I think that
helped wake him up.

He's now been clean for almost a year and is a changed person. So am
I.


His bottom was lower than most. Thank God you were there to help him.


I still think Oxy/heroin hits harder, those guys are never really off
the ****... just out of stock for the moment.

Could be. I don't know. I do know that alcohol is insidious ****.

In article , says...

http://tinyurl.com/c2xzcpa

"Susan Hendricks was admitted to psychiatric hospitals several times in the past three
decades. Her personalities likely started as a coping mechanism, Price said."

Three decades of mental illnes was the problem. Crazy people have privacy rights don't they?

"JustWaitAFrekinMinute" wrote in message
...


On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 18:05:17 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

If the laws are anything like those in MA, the person would have
to
either kill someone somehow or commit suicide before they would be
considered a threat to others or to themselves. Had a series of
long,
frustrated conversations with a state psychologist about this
last
year.


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message

That's pretty close. And once the dangerously mentally ill are in a
long-term facility, fund and staff shortages might get them
released
too
early. In private hospitals, you're pretty much dumped out as soon
as
your insurance is used up.

-----------------------------------------------------


On 4/27/2013 7:12 PM, Pro-Baby wrote:


His bottom was lower than most. Thank God you were there to help
him.


I still think Oxy/heroin hits harder, those guys are never really off
the ****... just out of stock for the moment.

-------------------------------------------------

I agree, although both booze and drugs can destroy lives. Dead is
dead. I have two friends with daughters in their early 20's who are
hooked on heroin. Both started with oxycontin and switched to heroin
because it's cheaper and more readily available. Both went through
de-tox and rehab twice and relapsed. They are currently both in a
sober house following the third attempt at rehab.

This is an area where I disagree with Harry in terms of some of his
comments regarding youth activities, including your situation. It's
important to support and encourage lawful activities that they may
have interest in and to keep them within the "real world" of
challenge, victory and defeat. It may be sports, dancing, art, music
or whatever but they need something to focus on outside of just
schoolwork and preparing for college or a job. The traditional
formal education part is important also, but not at the expense of all
other character building activities. I think many young people turn
to booze and drugs out of boredom during a period of time where they
want to sow their wild oats or demonstrate their individuality.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 00:33:44 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

I think many young people turn
to booze and drugs out of boredom during a period of time where they
want to sow their wild oats or demonstrate their individuality.

=======

That's all true, and all kids go through that phase. Other than
setting a good example at home, the next most important thing in my
opinion is who their friends are. That's difficult to control but
parents can exert some influence, especially with regard to what
activities they get involved with, as well as neighborhoods and
schools.

On 4/28/13 12:33 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"JustWaitAFrekinMinute" wrote in message
...


On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 18:05:17 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

If the laws are anything like those in MA, the person would have to
either kill someone somehow or commit suicide before they would be
considered a threat to others or to themselves. Had a series of
long,
frustrated conversations with a state psychologist about this last
year.


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message

That's pretty close. And once the dangerously mentally ill are in a
long-term facility, fund and staff shortages might get them released
too
early. In private hospitals, you're pretty much dumped out as soon as
your insurance is used up.

-----------------------------------------------------


On 4/27/2013 7:12 PM, Pro-Baby wrote:


His bottom was lower than most. Thank God you were there to help him.


I still think Oxy/heroin hits harder, those guys are never really off
the ****... just out of stock for the moment.

-------------------------------------------------

I agree, although both booze and drugs can destroy lives. Dead is
dead. I have two friends with daughters in their early 20's who are
hooked on heroin. Both started with oxycontin and switched to heroin
because it's cheaper and more readily available. Both went through
de-tox and rehab twice and relapsed. They are currently both in a sober
house following the third attempt at rehab.

This is an area where I disagree with Harry in terms of some of his
comments regarding youth activities, including your situation. It's
important to support and encourage lawful activities that they may have
interest in and to keep them within the "real world" of challenge,
victory and defeat. It may be sports, dancing, art, music or whatever
but they need something to focus on outside of just schoolwork and
preparing for college or a job. The traditional formal education part
is important also, but not at the expense of all other character
building activities. I think many young people turn to booze and drugs
out of boredom during a period of time where they want to sow their wild
oats or demonstrate their individuality.





Hmm. Where did you get the idea I opposed sports or other fun activities
for kids? I'm not a big fan of activities in which kids can easily get
seriously injured, but there are plenty of sports in which that is not a
big concern.

On 4/28/2013 7:52 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 4/28/13 12:33 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"JustWaitAFrekinMinute" wrote in message
...


On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 18:05:17 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

If the laws are anything like those in MA, the person would have to
either kill someone somehow or commit suicide before they would be
considered a threat to others or to themselves. Had a series of
long,
frustrated conversations with a state psychologist about this last
year.


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message

That's pretty close. And once the dangerously mentally ill are in a
long-term facility, fund and staff shortages might get them released
too
early. In private hospitals, you're pretty much dumped out as soon as
your insurance is used up.

-----------------------------------------------------


On 4/27/2013 7:12 PM, Pro-Baby wrote:


His bottom was lower than most. Thank God you were there to help him.


I still think Oxy/heroin hits harder, those guys are never really off
the ****... just out of stock for the moment.

-------------------------------------------------

I agree, although both booze and drugs can destroy lives. Dead is
dead. I have two friends with daughters in their early 20's who are
hooked on heroin. Both started with oxycontin and switched to heroin
because it's cheaper and more readily available. Both went through
de-tox and rehab twice and relapsed. They are currently both in a sober
house following the third attempt at rehab.

This is an area where I disagree with Harry in terms of some of his
comments regarding youth activities, including your situation. It's
important to support and encourage lawful activities that they may have
interest in and to keep them within the "real world" of challenge,
victory and defeat. It may be sports, dancing, art, music or whatever
but they need something to focus on outside of just schoolwork and
preparing for college or a job. The traditional formal education part
is important also, but not at the expense of all other character
building activities. I think many young people turn to booze and drugs
out of boredom during a period of time where they want to sow their wild
oats or demonstrate their individuality.





Hmm. Where did you get the idea I opposed sports or other fun activities
for kids? I'm not a big fan of activities in which kids can easily get
seriously injured, but there are plenty of sports in which that is not a
big concern.


Folks get lots of ideas about you. Mostly from what you've written.

"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
...

On 4/28/13 12:33 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"JustWaitAFrekinMinute" wrote in message
...


On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 18:05:17 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

If the laws are anything like those in MA, the person would have
to
either kill someone somehow or commit suicide before they would
be
considered a threat to others or to themselves. Had a series of
long,
frustrated conversations with a state psychologist about this
last
year.


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message

That's pretty close. And once the dangerously mentally ill are in
a
long-term facility, fund and staff shortages might get them
released
too
early. In private hospitals, you're pretty much dumped out as soon
as
your insurance is used up.

-----------------------------------------------------


On 4/27/2013 7:12 PM, Pro-Baby wrote:


His bottom was lower than most. Thank God you were there to help
him.


I still think Oxy/heroin hits harder, those guys are never really
off
the ****... just out of stock for the moment.

-------------------------------------------------

I agree, although both booze and drugs can destroy lives. Dead is
dead. I have two friends with daughters in their early 20's who
are
hooked on heroin. Both started with oxycontin and switched to
heroin
because it's cheaper and more readily available. Both went
through
de-tox and rehab twice and relapsed. They are currently both in a
sober
house following the third attempt at rehab.

This is an area where I disagree with Harry in terms of some of his
comments regarding youth activities, including your situation. It's
important to support and encourage lawful activities that they may
have
interest in and to keep them within the "real world" of challenge,
victory and defeat. It may be sports, dancing, art, music or
whatever
but they need something to focus on outside of just schoolwork and
preparing for college or a job. The traditional formal education
part
is important also, but not at the expense of all other character
building activities. I think many young people turn to booze and
drugs
out of boredom during a period of time where they want to sow their
wild
oats or demonstrate their individuality.





Hmm. Where did you get the idea I opposed sports or other fun
activities
for kids? I'm not a big fan of activities in which kids can easily get
seriously injured, but there are plenty of sports in which that is not
a
big concern.

------------------------------------------------

Because I don't think you can be overly directive in terms of what
activities are good or bad for them. They are developing
individuality and might enjoy some things that you may not necessarily
"approve" of. Accidents happen in virtually any form of recreation
or hobby but for most they are far and few between. Heck, I damn
near electrocuted myself on several occasions as a youngster playing
around with old radios, amps and TV sets.
Built a homemade bicycle with an oversized rear sprocket that would do
about 40 mph, all in the days before helmets and riding gear. Used
to have to be towed by my friend's older brother in a car to get it
going, but once rolling the stupid thing would fly. I survived.

I think too much pressure and influence is put on academics too early
now-a-days. It's important of course, but it needs to be balanced
with other youthful interests and activities. Unfortunately it
comes from nationalized testing that starts in the second grade for
cripes sakes and it's not necessarily geared to benefit the students,
but rather the school systems and their funding.

In article ,
says...

On 4/27/2013 7:12 PM, Pro-Baby wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 18:05:17 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

On 4/27/13 4:50 PM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
...


In many states, if a licensed therapist determines a person is a
threat
to himself/herself or others, that person can be hospitalized for up
to
three days for a full-blown psychological exam. After the exam, a
judge
holds a hearing to determine if further hospitalization is
necessary. It
sort of works like that, except there aren't enough beds or decent
facilities to take care of those who need the help, and judges are
reluctant for that and other reasons to require long-term
hospitalization.

---------------------------------------

If the laws are anything like those in MA, the person would have to
either kill someone somehow or commit suicide before they would be
considered a threat to others or to themselves. Had a series of
long,
frustrated conversations with a state psychologist about this last
year.



That's pretty close. And once the dangerously mentally ill are in a
long-term facility, fund and staff shortages might get them released
too
early. In private hospitals, you're pretty much dumped out as soon as
your insurance is used up.

-----------------------------------------------------

Last summer I found myself involved in trying to get help for a family
member. It came to a head one weekend last July (after several
months of trying to convince him to get help) when he was caught by
the police on a beach after several witnesses reported him driving a
car in a reckless fashion. The police had him transported to the
hospital where he went through the standard de-tox period. He was
released the following morning, went home and started drinking again.
I happened to stop by his apartment to check up on him and found him
in the process of respiratory failure .... which is typically the
cause of death due to an overdose of alcohol. Called 911, and the
police and EMT's were dispatched. Meanwhile, I followed the
instructions of the 911 dispatcher to keep the person from choking.

At the recommendation of the police and fire department officials, I
requested that a physiological exam/interview be conducted at the end
of the de-tox period to establish grounds for a court petition for
involuntary commitment to a rehab facility as a back-up plan in the
event that the person continued to refuse help in the form of a
private, voluntary program. I had already made the necessary
arrangements for him to go to a private de-tox/rehab facility however,
by law, he had to agree to go voluntarily. He was still in a state of
total denial .... actually he wasn't capable of thinking period ....
but the law is the law. So, the court ordered rehab was my back-up
plan.

The interview was done and the psychologist called me. She first
asked me if I was aware of the person's blood alcohol levels on the
two consecutive days of de-tox treatment. I said, "no". She
informed me that the first day it was 350 and the second day it was
450. She then explained that anything over 350 is considered a
"lethal" dose.

She then informed me that based on the interview, she could not
recommend or support a court petition for involuntary commitment.
Her opinion was that he was not an "immediate threat" to himself or
to others.

I couldn't believe what she was saying. I asked her if consuming a
"lethal dose" of alcohol twice in one weekend and having to have the
police haul his car away to the pound after driving down the wrong
side of the street in a reckless fashion doesn't constitute threats to
himself or others, then what does? She told me that he would have
actually had to try to commit suicide or intentionally have to hurt
someone in order to pass the test of the law for involuntary
commitment.

We had a couple more discussions following that. She agreed to
schedule an appointment to interview him again. But meanwhile, I
had a bed reserved in a private facility and needed to somehow
convince him that he had to go before it became unavailable. There
was no time for a second "interview". So, I bluffed. I
basically told him he was going, one way or another. His choice was a
nice, pleasant, private facility on Cape Cod or a court ordered
facility within the confines of one of the state prisons. I had
already written a court petition and showed it to him. I didn't let
on that there was not much a chance it would be approved without the
state shrink's recommendation.

It worked. We hauled him off to the private place with him kicking
and screaming all the way, claiming he didn't need and didn't have a
"problem". Well, he did. Four days into their mandatory five day
de-tox period (before the rehab process starts) he had a withdrawal
seizure, fell on the floor and fractured his skull. I think that
helped wake him up.

He's now been clean for almost a year and is a changed person. So am
I.


His bottom was lower than most. Thank God you were there to help him.


I still think Oxy/heroin hits harder, those guys are never really off
the ****... just out of stock for the moment.

Bull****.

In article ,
says...

"JustWaitAFrekinMinute" wrote in message
...


On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 18:05:17 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

If the laws are anything like those in MA, the person would have
to
either kill someone somehow or commit suicide before they would be
considered a threat to others or to themselves. Had a series of
long,
frustrated conversations with a state psychologist about this
last
year.


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message

That's pretty close. And once the dangerously mentally ill are in a
long-term facility, fund and staff shortages might get them
released
too
early. In private hospitals, you're pretty much dumped out as soon
as
your insurance is used up.

-----------------------------------------------------


On 4/27/2013 7:12 PM, Pro-Baby wrote:


His bottom was lower than most. Thank God you were there to help
him.


I still think Oxy/heroin hits harder, those guys are never really off
the ****... just out of stock for the moment.

-------------------------------------------------

I agree, although both booze and drugs can destroy lives. Dead is
dead. I have two friends with daughters in their early 20's who are
hooked on heroin. Both started with oxycontin and switched to heroin
because it's cheaper and more readily available. Both went through
de-tox and rehab twice and relapsed. They are currently both in a
sober house following the third attempt at rehab.

This is an area where I disagree with Harry in terms of some of his
comments regarding youth activities, including your situation. It's
important to support and encourage lawful activities that they may
have interest in and to keep them within the "real world" of
challenge, victory and defeat. It may be sports, dancing, art, music
or whatever but they need something to focus on outside of just
schoolwork and preparing for college or a job. The traditional
formal education part is important also, but not at the expense of all
other character building activities. I think many young people turn
to booze and drugs out of boredom during a period of time where they
want to sow their wild oats or demonstrate their individuality.

Addiction is a big problem in areas that are far north so that the
winters are cold, dark and long.