My house..built 71 years ago in the middle of WW2 when this city was booming supplying Britain with badly needed supplies had the same basic basement when we bought in 1985.
I ran plugs, electric lights and electric baseboard heaters everywhere.

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 1 May 2013 17:02:02 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

Please give cite to those numbers.

Did you look at the link?

The dimmable is 14w v 13w for a 60w equivalent.
The dimmable is 8000 hours the regular 10,000 hours MBTF
The consumer rating is what it is.

I'm sorry, where does that say that the cost is "7 times what a regular
CVL costs"?

At Lowes
The dimmable is $9.98 each. You can get 18 regular CFLs for $25. Do
the math.

And while the dimmable doesn't last as long, 4/5ths of the
life of a standard CFL isn't bad, and better than an incandescent by a
LONG shot. You've been hoodwinked by FOX, like the Mercury in them,
which is 100 to 600 times less than a fever thermometer.

You haven't been able to buy a mercury thermometer for decades and one
would last a lifetime. CFLs are consummables. Virtually every one of
them will end up in the environment somewhere.

No, they don't. And yes you can.


And you are comparing a GOOD dimmable with the low priced, low
performing, crappy lighting CFL's designed to be put in an ad to get you
into the store.

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 1 May 2013 16:53:21 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

Which addition of the code is this in and what section? Does it specify
that the addendum was because of CFL's?

What are you talking about?

The required neutral is specified in NFPA70 (NEC) article 404.2(C).

This came about because the 2 wire devices do not work with LEDs and
CFLs. They work OK with incandescents.
You need a neutral for a 3 wire device and these electronic bulbs
require a 3 wire switching device of you want automatic operation.

That automatic control ends up being encouraged by several energy
codes including the ICC codes and LEEDs.

Some of the ICC references for occupancy sensors


505.2.1.1 Classrooms and meeting rooms.
A control device shall be installed in classrooms (except shop
classrooms, laboratory classrooms, and preschool through 12th grade
classrooms), conference/meeting rooms and employee lunch and break
rooms that automatically turns lighting off within 30 minutes of all
occupants leaving a space. These spaces are not required to be
connected to other automatic lighting shutoff controls.

05.2.2 Automatic lighting shutoff.
Buildings larger than 5,000 square feet (465 m2) shall be equipped
with an automatic control device to shut off lighting in those areas.
This automatic control device shall function on either:
1. A scheduled basis, using time-of-day, with an independent program
schedule that controls the interior lighting in areas that do not
exceed 25,000 square feet (2323 m2) and are not more than one floor;
or
2. An occupant sensor that shall turn lighting off within 30 minutes
of an occupant leaving a space; or



505.2.1.2 All other spaces.
Each control device shall be activated either manually by an occupant
or automatically by sensing an occupant and be capable of overriding
any time-of-day scheduled shut-off control for no more than four hours
in accordance with Section 505.2.2.1. Spatial control shall be limited
as shown in Table 505.2.1.2:


Folks out there in the Peoples Republic of California have even
stricter "Title 24" requirements.
The familiar T12 florescent tube has been banned for years.

And has NOTHING to do with CFL's. NOTHING.

In article ,
says...

On 5/1/2013 11:25 PM, Wayne B wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2013 22:26:35 -0400, JustWaitAFrekinMinute
wrote:

The CFL's are bull****. I have to run two lamps in most rooms to get any
decent light...

====

You're doing something wrong. You can get CFLs with just as much
light as a 100 watt bulb only using a fraction of the power. They
are "instant on" also. We use 60 watt equivalents on the boat
intsead of 110 volt incadescents. They make a huge difference in
power draw when we are running on the inverter batteries.


I sit at a reading desk.. You can tell me all you want that 23 watt CFL
puts out as much light or lumens @.. etc.. but I know what I can see
with, and what I can't...

It's the color spectrum you have to look at when buying bulbs.

On 5/2/2013 2:01 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2013 23:25:46 -0400, Wayne B
wrote:

On Wed, 01 May 2013 22:26:35 -0400, JustWaitAFrekinMinute
wrote:

The CFL's are bull****. I have to run two lamps in most rooms to get any
decent light...

====

You're doing something wrong. You can get CFLs with just as much
light as a 100 watt bulb only using a fraction of the power. They
are "instant on" also. We use 60 watt equivalents on the boat
intsead of 110 volt incadescents. They make a huge difference in
power draw when we are running on the inverter batteries.

I have not seen any "instant on" but they do come up in a second or
less


Yes Wayne, what I am doing wrong is not dropping the last digit from the
wattage comparison... it's not a 60 watt CFL, it's a 6.0 watt.. Now I
get it...

On 5/2/2013 1:52 AM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article ,
says...


"2 wire" snap switches or electronic switching?


Simple snap switches - that are probably +95% of all residential
switches.


Baloney. A code for lighting controls requiring 3-wire would fix that.
No need to make every switch 3-wire.

That is exactly what they did.

Nope. What they did is require a neutral where it's not needed in the
vast majority of cases.

l.

There are a lot of states that cave in to builders and write code
exceptions.


Good for them in this case. Electricians generally think it's a stupid
code from what I've read. Steps over the "design" line.

Most electricians say the same thing about AFCIs, some say it about
GFCIs and a few even say the required small appliance circuits in the
kitchen should be a design issue.
I agree the code has become a vehicle for companies to sell hardware
but it is sold as safety.
It is just that politically correct "if it just saves one life" thing
you lefties seem to embrace everywhere else.

Right. I don't agree with a "greenie" code - so I'm a "lefty."
Yup, you sure enough drank the kool-ade.


Why would you want to have neutral on a snap switch unless it is
illuminated?

On 5/2/2013 2:05 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 May 2013 00:48:31 -0400, Hank©
wrote:

On 5/1/2013 10:08 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2013 22:20:10 -0400, Hank©
wrote:

On 5/1/2013 8:29 PM, Wayne B wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2013 20:05:45 -0400, wrote:

This came about because the 2 wire devices do not work with LEDs and
CFLs. They work OK with incandescents.

===

For us laymen, can you explain why that is?


I'd like to know too. I have almost 40 LEDs working with 2 wires. There
are of course three wires in the fixture but one of them is ground and
not part of the circuit.

The 3 wires are at the switch and it is required if you use electronic
switching and don't power the circuit through the load.
That would be typical of any occupancy sensor or timer that is a drop
in replacement for a snap switch.
In some of my applications I use the regular motion detector heads you
use outside and they have a relay for the switch so they will run
anything but you need a neutral for them.


I'll have to take your word for it. I wasn't aware that a ground is used
to complete a live circuit. Sounds hokey to me but I won't argue with you.

They used the ground for the electronics in some of the old designs
and the U/L standard was 500ua.

That would still be 1/10th of what it takes to trip a GFCI so it was
not seen as a safety issue.

Sounds like you'd have some pretty confused electrons running around if
you used many of those sort of devices.

On 5/2/2013 2:18 AM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Wed, 01 May 2013 22:44:14 -0400, Hank©
wrote:


Your life is too complicated by this stuff.

Once you get a good array of motion and occupancy sensors in place,
you start wondering why you didn't do it sooner.
This actually started over a quarter century ago when I saw my wife
and daughter using the open refrigerator as a night light.

You gotta be kidding. Even 100 year-old houses are wired with wall
switches by the door. Have you ever heard of flashlights and nite-
lites?

That was my first indoor motion detector, turning on a small light
that lit up the kitchen, dining room and hallway. Now everywhere you
go around he house, inside or out, the light follows you.
The only places that don't have detectors are the bedrooms.
Inside it is really just 5 strategically located detectors and some
low level lighting.

I bet my dogs would be shocked as they wander around the house.
Wonder what all that on/off does for bulb longevity. We have one small
CFL in the range hood that provides almost whole house night light.
Illuminates enough to avoid tripping everywhere, including the bedrooms
if the door is open. My basement isn't wired up for lighting, so I just
keep a 3 dollar LED flashlight on a shelf at the foot of the stairs to
get to the one wall switch 20 feet away in the dark. Haven't even
changed the batteries in about 4 years.
Different strokes.


Different strokes for sure. My solutions are almost 100% LED right down
to nightlights. I have even replaced most of my always on LED
nightlights with photoelectric models. Probably a bit overkill but it
makes me happy ;-
)

On 5/2/2013 7:48 AM, True North wrote:
My house..built 71 years ago in the middle of WW2 when this city was booming supplying Britain with badly needed supplies had the same basic basement when we bought in 1985.
I ran plugs, electric lights and electric baseboard heaters everywhere.

Are you still running Knob and tube?

On 5/2/13 11:27 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 2 May 2013 01:18:36 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 01 May 2013 22:44:14 -0400, Hank©
wrote:


Your life is too complicated by this stuff.

Once you get a good array of motion and occupancy sensors in place,
you start wondering why you didn't do it sooner.
This actually started over a quarter century ago when I saw my wife
and daughter using the open refrigerator as a night light.

You gotta be kidding. Even 100 year-old houses are wired with wall
switches by the door. Have you ever heard of flashlights and nite-
lites?

That was my first indoor motion detector, turning on a small light
that lit up the kitchen, dining room and hallway. Now everywhere you
go around he house, inside or out, the light follows you.
The only places that don't have detectors are the bedrooms.
Inside it is really just 5 strategically located detectors and some
low level lighting.

I bet my dogs would be shocked as they wander around the house.
Wonder what all that on/off does for bulb longevity. We have one small
CFL in the range hood that provides almost whole house night light.
Illuminates enough to avoid tripping everywhere, including the bedrooms
if the door is open. My basement isn't wired up for lighting, so I just
keep a 3 dollar LED flashlight on a shelf at the foot of the stairs to
get to the one wall switch 20 feet away in the dark. Haven't even
changed the batteries in about 4 years.
Different strokes.

I guess I like things a little more convenient than walking around
with a flashlight.
Human nature is to turn on the light but not to turn it off. I see it
every night when I am walking the dog around the neighborhood. I know
there are only 1 or 2 people in the house and it is lit up like an
office building, even after I know they are probably in bed.
If you are just passing through, turning off the light requires a 3
way or 4 way loop that probably was not put there by the builder and
would be tough to do after the drywall is up. A $20 occupancy sensor,
strategically located, connected to a light or two in the right place,
fixes all of that.


We don't have problems remembering to turn off the lights when we leave
a room. I do, however, have the outside lights on the front porch and on
either side of the garage on timer switches, and the floods around the
house on motion detectors.