On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 20:38:04 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
...


Ducati produces beautifully made motorcycles that are super fast,
handle
well, and are reliable. I've had Honda and Kawasaki motorcycles and
have
found their reliability no different than "The Duc."

---------------------------------

I think the reliability of all modern vehicles .... cars, trucks,
motorcycles and even boats .... are vastly improved over the ones
produced 20 or 30 years ago. Only problem is, they have become so
complex that they can't usually be worked on by us "shade tree
mechanics" of yesterday.

I just bought a 2002 Saturn for a local "kick around" car. It's
about as basic as you can get but the price was right and it's in
amazingly good condition.
Looks new ... even the interior is spotless.

But, the AC didn't work. Popping the hood I noticed that the clutch
on the AC compressor wasn't pulling in. I had a old Pontiac LeMans
(probably a '65 or thereabouts) years ago in Puerto Rico that had the
same problem. Something was messed up in the controls that engaged
the clutch. I simply hotwired a fused and switched wire from the
battery to the clutch connector and it worked fine, except I had to
remember to cycle it on and off. Not so on the Saturn.

Now they have a pressure transducer that senses both the high and low
pressure sides of the AC system. If either are out of spec, it
doesn't allow the clutch to pull in. Ok. So, I figured maybe it
needed a charge and headed off to Auto Zone and bought one of those
DIY charging kits. Sure enough, the low pressure side was low when
measured with the included gauge. I carefully and faithfully
followed the directions on how to charge it. But it didn't make
sense because the clutch wouldn't engage. Tried it several times
getting the low side up to the specified pressure reading without
success. So, out comes the multimeter and I started checking all the
voltage points. Everything is fine, except no power to the clutch.
I was about to give up and do the "hot wire" thing to see if the
clutch worked at all but decided to Google the wiring schematics for
the Saturn's AC system. Turns out there's a diode in the fuse box
that is supposed to protect the AC fuse from spikes in the line when
the clutch disengages. Checked it in forward and reversed biased
positions and it was shorted. Back to AutoZone and got a new diode,
thinking I had found the problem. Still didn't work, so I decided to
give the recharge one more try. This time I ignored the warnings
about overcharging and brought the pressure up above above the
specified level. That did it. The clutch suddenly engaged and the
tank of R134A started getting cold, meaning the AC system was drawing
the refrigerant out of the tank and the low side pressure dropped to
within the specified range.

Within 5 minutes the car vents were blowing nice, ice cold air and I
felt pretty proud of myself. Rechecked the new diode and it's fine,
so hopefully it will keep working.


We just bought a VW Sportwagon. I was surprised, and happy, that much of the gimmickry wasn't loaded
into the car. Even the seats are operated with a handle for raising and a handle for moving forward
and backward. It doesn't have 'seat memory', garage door openers, remote starting, and probably a
dozen other niceties. I love it. So much less to break - and 40mpg!

John H.
--

Hope you're having a great day!

In article ,
says...

On Monday, June 10, 2013 8:40:05 AM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,

says...









With someone more skilled than I am driving it, my motorcycle will blow

the doors off that Ford truck in 0-60 and in the quarter mile and again,

with the right driver, leave that 911 Turbo you had behind, too.



But...not me with driving.



Only in a straight line. A car has more grip in the corners, and has the advantage on the track. You have to turn sooner or later.



Wait, are you saying that a car will out corner a motorcycle?

Yes!

Not true,

the reason being, you are right in thinking because of the amount of

tire contact a car has does give it a greater friction coefficient, you

also have mass to deal with, and simply physics will tell you that a

given mass wants to stay in a straight line, and that mass is MUCH

greater with a car. It's a centrifugal force thing! So, all in all, they

are closer to equal than anything. Motorcycle has less contact patch,

but also less mass.

There must be some reason that nearly every track record is held by a
4 wheeled vehicle.

Cite?

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:40:10 -0400, JustWaitAFrekinMinute
wrote:

On 6/10/2013 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 10:54:51 -0700 (PDT), True North
wrote:

This is my idea of an F-150 and Porsche drivers feared me.

At least they would not cut me off ;-)

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Brownie.jpg

Those old pickups sure look puny compared to new models.
We saw an early Tundra (T 100 ??)yesterday and it doesn't look as capable as a new Tacoma.

The operative word here is "look".

That was a tough old truck.
A pallet of pavers, a pallet of sod, no matter, off it went.


I remember my dad's Ford had a straight 6. Wouldn't gain any speed going
up hill with a load, wouldn't lose any either...

That one had the 300CI 6 and it was plenty strong, even pulling my
boat.
It had the classic Florida Ford problem tho. They came standard with a
2 core radiator and in hot weather, towing, they ran hot. I put in a 3
core and the problem was fixed. I had to do the same thing with my
E150 van.

I loved the old straight sixes, lots of low end torque.

In article ,
says...

On Monday, June 10, 2013 4:44:30 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:40:10 -0400, JustWaitAFrekinMinute

wrote:



On 6/10/2013 2:15 PM, wrote:

On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 10:54:51 -0700 (PDT), True North

wrote:



This is my idea of an F-150 and Porsche drivers feared me.



At least they would not cut me off ;-)



http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Brownie.jpg



Those old pickups sure look puny compared to new models.

We saw an early Tundra (T 100 ??)yesterday and it doesn't look as capable as a new Tacoma.



The operative word here is "look".



That was a tough old truck.

A pallet of pavers, a pallet of sod, no matter, off it went.





I remember my dad's Ford had a straight 6. Wouldn't gain any speed going

up hill with a load, wouldn't lose any either...



That one had the 300CI 6 and it was plenty strong, even pulling my

boat.

It had the classic Florida Ford problem tho. They came standard with a

2 core radiator and in hot weather, towing, they ran hot. I put in a 3

core and the problem was fixed. I had to do the same thing with my

E150 van.

The 300 straight six was a torque monster. My dad had one in a 4x4, and in low range in 1st, you could let out the clutch and about walk beside it at idle. At that same idle, it would just about climb a tree. Great truck motor.

I liked the third generation Ford sixes, started out as a 144, then
stroke was lengthened to a 170, then they took the 170 bottom end and
made the 200, seen in Comets and such. Then they again lengthened the
200 stroke into the 250, a real beast of a six. I had a '69 Fairlane 2
door that had the 250 in it, and a 289 V8 had a hard time beating me. I
also beat a friend's Duster with a 318 V8 more than once.

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:38:16 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, June 10, 2013 8:40:05 AM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,

says...









With someone more skilled than I am driving it, my motorcycle will blow

the doors off that Ford truck in 0-60 and in the quarter mile and again,

with the right driver, leave that 911 Turbo you had behind, too.



But...not me with driving.



Only in a straight line. A car has more grip in the corners, and has the advantage on the track. You have to turn sooner or later.



Wait, are you saying that a car will out corner a motorcycle?

Yes!

Not true,

the reason being, you are right in thinking because of the amount of

tire contact a car has does give it a greater friction coefficient, you

also have mass to deal with, and simply physics will tell you that a

given mass wants to stay in a straight line, and that mass is MUCH

greater with a car. It's a centrifugal force thing! So, all in all, they

are closer to equal than anything. Motorcycle has less contact patch,

but also less mass.

There must be some reason that nearly every track record is held by a 4 wheeled vehicle. Much greater traction coupled with aerodynamic down force the bike doesn't have. Nah, you're probably right, they're equal.

A little bit of dampness and that motorcycle will slow down in a big hurry.

John H.

So won't the car.

In article ,
says...

On 6/10/13 8:40 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,
says...




With someone more skilled than I am driving it, my motorcycle will blow
the doors off that Ford truck in 0-60 and in the quarter mile and again,
with the right driver, leave that 911 Turbo you had behind, too.

But...not me with driving.

Only in a straight line. A car has more grip in the corners, and has the advantage on the track. You have to turn sooner or later.

Wait, are you saying that a car will out corner a motorcycle? Not true,
the reason being, you are right in thinking because of the amount of
tire contact a car has does give it a greater friction coefficient, you
also have mass to deal with, and simply physics will tell you that a
given mass wants to stay in a straight line, and that mass is MUCH
greater with a car. It's a centrifugal force thing! So, all in all, they
are closer to equal than anything. Motorcycle has less contact patch,
but also less mass.


It depends on the track and the vehicles.

On a relatively simply track, like, for example, Daytona, certain
Italian motorcycles will blow the doors off your Ferraris, Porsches, and
Corvettes with similar top speeds because they will out-accelerate these
four wheeled vehicles, and braking isn't as severe as it would be on a
more difficult track with lots of complex, tight turns. On the more
severe tracks, the motorcycles cannot go as deep and as fast into the
tight turns as the cars, which have better brakes, so the cars can play
catchup. The bikes may still finish faster, but only because of their
acceleration abilities. This has been demonstrated many times with top
drivers in each category. It's the brakes.

Physical science doesn't change because of opinion.

In article ,
says...

"Earl" wrote in message
...

Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
...



With someone more skilled than I am driving it, my motorcycle will
blow
the doors off that Ford truck in 0-60 and in the quarter mile and
again,
with the right driver, leave that 911 Turbo you had behind, too. If
I
recall the test data, the Duc will do 0=60 in 3.1 or 3.2 seconds,
and
the quarter mile in 11.1 seconds. A couple of the Ducs will beat 3
seconds in 0-60 and do the quarter mile in under 10 seconds.

But...not me with driving.

---------------------------------------

Or me. I like bikes too ... or did. But at some point you have
to face the music and realize that reflexes aren't what they used to
be and motorcycles can be .... well ... flat out dangerous, even for
experienced riders. That, plus the fact that I got spoiled having
the Harley in Florida. I know I'll get all kinds of incoming flack
for this but cruising around in the early evening on some of the
inland roads near Jupiter in a tee shirt and no helmet was the
balls.
Never went fast. Just nice, cruising on isolated back roads away
from all the noise and traffic. Compared to riding up here in MA
where you still have to have leathers on in the evenings, even in
the summer, helmet, gloves, chaps, .... the heck with it. Just
wasn't the same. Last Harley was a 2007 Ultra Classic. Beast
weighed almost 900 lbs. Then, I traded a 1965 Volkswagon Bus that
I picked up for a completely restored 1974 Norton 850 Commando.
Pretty stupid move. The Norton was a young man's bike, not
something for an old fart like me. Reliving my youth, or tried to.
Rode it twice and sold it.



Harry's imaginary Ducati is far more unreliable than either of your
M5's. I know several people who have owned one, and only one, and now
have another brand.

------------------------------------------

That's hard to believe. The two M5's I had were nightmares. They
were 2006 models and I think BMW was still getting all the bugs out of
the software that controlled virtually every aspect of the car. The
first one was constantly locking up the transmission so you couldn't
shift it. Software revisions and upgrades didn't fix it. They
finally gave me a newer one, manufactured later in the year that
supposedly had all the "bugs" worked out. Nope. Started doing the
same thing. Red cog of death appeared on the dash display. I had
enough. They are awesome cars and maybe all the bugs are worked out
by now, but it turned me off to BMW performance vehicles.

Friend had a BMW that was very problematic, I don't know if he had a
lemon or that it was what it was.

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 08:21:14 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"Hank©" wrote in message
eb.com...

On 6/10/2013 9:37 PM, wrote:

You still don't know where the gas went. You will be back.

About 3 mos. ago I had exactly the same scenario as Eisboch, including
the difficulty getting the compressor to start. Over several years,
the
charge can leak past the seals. Mine has been working fine since the
recharge. Knock on wood.

-----------------------------------------------

The seals that typically go bad are simple Buna or Viton O'rings.
They are not perfect seals, even when new. They have a specification
called "permeability" that relates to how many molecules can pass
through the material it's made of. Dealt with this routinely in the
high vacuum equipment business. Assuming no real "leaks", the
permeability of the various O'ring seals used on the vacuum system is
what limited the ultimate level of vacuum that could be achieved. In
ultra high vacuum systems, use of Buna or Viton O'rings are used
sparingly and compressed copper metal seals are used instead.

One of the features of the 134A refrigerant that replaced freon 12 is
that the gas molecules are smaller and the number of molecules that
can pass "through" the O'ring material is higher. If the O'ring is
kept lubricated (contained in the 134A refrigerant), the amount lost
due to permeability is reduced. But if the system sits, unused for
lengthy periods of time, enough can pass through the O'ring seals to
make the system inoperable.

I think the old Freon 12 systems had a high pressure cut out that
disengaged the clutch, causing the system to cycle on and off in
normal operation. What appears to be new in the more modern systems
is a transducer that also monitors the low side pressure side. If it
drops too much, the clutch will not engage. It's purpose is to
prevent damage to the compressor by running it "dry". I am not an AC
expert by any means but it makes sense to me.



Car AC units have had a low pressure cut out for years. My 83 Firebird
had it.
It took 2 cans of gas to get it going from empty.

My father had a '70 Merc that had a low pressure cut out on it.

wrote in message ...

On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 08:21:14 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


I think the old Freon 12 systems had a high pressure cut out that
disengaged the clutch, causing the system to cycle on and off in
normal operation. What appears to be new in the more modern systems
is a transducer that also monitors the low side pressure side. If
it
drops too much, the clutch will not engage. It's purpose is to
prevent damage to the compressor by running it "dry". I am not an
AC
expert by any means but it makes sense to me.



Car AC units have had a low pressure cut out for years. My 83 Firebird
had it.
It took 2 cans of gas to get it going from empty.

-------------------------------------------

Thanks. I never knew that. Actually I don't know much about AC
systems period ....especially in cars. Fooling around with the one
in the little Saturn has been educational.

On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:54:07 AM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,

says...

There must be some reason that nearly every track record is held by a
4 wheeled vehicle.

Cite?

Barcelona 2005
Formula One - Fisicella's Renault - 1:15.641 fast lap.
MotoGP - Gibernau's Honda - 1:42.337 fast lap.

PHILLIP ISLAND GRAND PRIX CIRCUIT LAP RECORDS
OUTRIGHT SIMON WILLS REYNARD 94D 13/02/2000 1.24.2215
FORMULA 4000 SIMON WILLS REYNARD 94D 13/02/2000 1.24.2215

PHILLIP ISLAND GRAND PRIX CIRCUIT
MOTORCYCLE LAP RECORDS
MotoGP Marco Melandri (Ita) Honda RC211V 1:30.332 16-Oct-05
Pole : Nicky Hayden (USA) Honda RC211V 1:29.020 16-Sep-06

A couple of results from a quick google. You can do the rest of the work.

Pretty much the only tracks where you'll find faster times for bikes are the tracks specifically designed for bikes. Cars obviously enjoy enough of an advantage from their superior traction, brakes and downforce that it negates the bike's advantage of less mass and better power/weight ratio. Not by a lot, but 6 - 27 seconds (the diff in the examples above) is a lot on a track.

Have fun.