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On 3/17/2015 4:52 PM, jps wrote:
On Tue, 17 Mar 2015 11:25:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Tough decision for the kids. It's not my place to advise, but I know what I'd do. Thanks for sharing this. I have a similar situation with an elderly parent who refuses to move out of her house, doesn't trust anyone. We're waiting for circumstance to dictate the path forward. Hope we're all smart enough to figure a more graceful finish. I am sure laws vary state to state but in general they are very protective of the rights of the elderly. Unless a medical doctor or psychiatrist declares them incapable of understanding their situation, they cannot be forced to accept any form of treatment, help or be forced into assisted living or a nursing home. The key is competency to make rational decisions. My wife and her sister (with support by others) have tried to convince their mother to move to an assisted living facility for years without success. It's hard for elderly people to give up whatever dignity and independence they may still have. My mother, who had a rare form of MS, fought the concept of assisted living for years but finally realized she needed help on a 24 hour a day basis. After my father died, she lived in a house that we purchased and refurbished, equipping it with handicapped access and features. It was located at the end of our house's driveway so it was convenient for us to check up on her two or three times a day. We even got her a golf cart so she could get outdoors and occasionally come up to our house to visit. But, after 7 years there her condition deteriorated to the point where she realized she needed 24 hour assistance. It's tough when simple things like using the bathroom are impossible without help. She stayed fairly active in the assisted living/nursing home and had many new friends. Fortunately she stayed mentally sharp right up to the end even though physically her condition worsened. She was a bright woman, understood her situation and didn't want to burden evey one else. |
#12
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On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 5:24:08 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/17/2015 4:52 PM, jps wrote: On Tue, 17 Mar 2015 11:25:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Tough decision for the kids. It's not my place to advise, but I know what I'd do. Thanks for sharing this. I have a similar situation with an elderly parent who refuses to move out of her house, doesn't trust anyone. We're waiting for circumstance to dictate the path forward. Hope we're all smart enough to figure a more graceful finish. I am sure laws vary state to state but in general they are very protective of the rights of the elderly. Unless a medical doctor or psychiatrist declares them incapable of understanding their situation, they cannot be forced to accept any form of treatment, help or be forced into assisted living or a nursing home. The key is competency to make rational decisions. My wife and her sister (with support by others) have tried to convince their mother to move to an assisted living facility for years without success. It's hard for elderly people to give up whatever dignity and independence they may still have. My mother, who had a rare form of MS, fought the concept of assisted living for years but finally realized she needed help on a 24 hour a day basis. After my father died, she lived in a house that we purchased and refurbished, equipping it with handicapped access and features. It was located at the end of our house's driveway so it was convenient for us to check up on her two or three times a day. We even got her a golf cart so she could get outdoors and occasionally come up to our house to visit. But, after 7 years there her condition deteriorated to the point where she realized she needed 24 hour assistance. It's tough when simple things like using the bathroom are impossible without help. She stayed fairly active in the assisted living/nursing home and had many new friends. Fortunately she stayed mentally sharp right up to the end even though physically her condition worsened. She was a bright woman, understood her situation and didn't want to burden evey one else. If you don't have it already, get a durable Power of Attorney for both general (financial) and medical. I'm going through that right now with my dad. He's still living in his house, but refuses to accept much help or admit he even needs it (he does, IMO). He's past the point of being able to take care of himself, but won't agree to go to an assisted living facility. We have a lady that comes in twice a day to make sure he gets food and meds, and my siblings and I do that on the weekends, but he really should be somewhere with 24hr care in case of a mishap. He'll have none of that, however.. They can't force it on him, and neither can we. It's really a sad situation. |
#13
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#14
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posted to rec.boats
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"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
I feel badly for my wife and her sister. Both have been the primary care givers for their elderly parents for many years. Their father passed away a little over a year ago and the demands of taking care of their mother have been ever increasing since. The mother is *very* old school Italian and doesn't trust doctors, hospitals or social workers. She is 90 years old now and has adamantly refused any suggestion of moving into assisted living or a nursing home. She wants to remain in her house but my wife gets calls from her constantly day and night complaining about something or demanding that my wife go to the store for her or help take car of her dog. They have arranged for professional social workers and nursing help to visit daily (their mother is also diabetic) but the mother keeps kicking them out, accusing them of stealing things or simply complaining about them. Two weeks ago something happened and the mother called 911, was transported to the hospital but then refused any medical services. One of her legs had swelled up and was bleeding. My wife requested a psychiatric evaluation and the psychiatrist declared that the mother was fine and was capable of making decisions. So, she was released. The medical docs can't keep people against their will. Then, two days ago it happened again. This time my wife called 911 and the mother was whisked off to the hospital again. Same thing after she arrived ... refused treatment. Again, she was evaluated by a psychiatrist who determined her to be "fine" mentally. Then the medical docs called and reported that the mother was experiencing hallucinations. They also, despite the shrink's evaluation declared the mother as being "incompetent" regarding making decisions which now puts the onus on my wife and her sister to determine what's in her best interests. At my wife's and her sister's insistence, they convinced the mother to stay in the hospital and allow a few tests to be conducted. The docs quietly sedated her to make her more cooperative. A CAT scan followed by a full body MRI revealed she has a brain tumor the size of a golf ball in her head and a life-threatening clot in the swollen leg. The docs have given her 3 months, max. So, one of the two issues is going to do her in, the clot or the brain tumor. A procedure to minimize the clot threat is available but it involves risk and all it will do is buy a little time for someone who doesn't have much time left and who's quality of life is dismal. Tough decision for the kids. It's not my place to advise, but I know what I'd do. My heart goes out to your wife and sister in law. My brother and I went through this with our dad in the early 1980's. Bone cancer. We went with no heroic measures and let nature take it's course. Was hard, but he was terminal and really poor quality of life. As an aside, seems as if those Doctors of competency are really lacking. My mother in law was bipolar, and was under a doctors care most of her adult life, and never really was fixed in anyway. Other than a lithium regimen later in life. |
#15
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On 3/17/2015 9:30 PM, Califbill wrote:
"Mr. Luddite" wrote: Tough decision for the kids. It's not my place to advise, but I know what I'd do. My heart goes out to your wife and sister in law. My brother and I went through this with our dad in the early 1980's. Bone cancer. We went with no heroic measures and let nature take it's course. Was hard, but he was terminal and really poor quality of life. As an aside, seems as if those Doctors of competency are really lacking. My mother in law was bipolar, and was under a doctors care most of her adult life, and never really was fixed in anyway. Other than a lithium regimen later in life. I have a bit of a problem with psychiatrists. I think it's a very inexact science more prone to guess work and personal opinions. In this case family members became concerned about unusual behavior including indications of a lack of sense of reality and requested that she be evaluated. Two different psychiatrists were involved and both declared the mother to be "fine", the first about 3 weeks ago and the second after she was admitted to the hospital three days ago. Their mother was also complaining of a severe headache and my wife and her sister were the ones who requested the initial CAT scan (which was followed up by the MRI) that showed the golf ball sized brain tumor. The psychiatric evaluation is key to determining competency which becomes a legal issue. By declaring her as being "fine" the psychiatrists prevent rational decision making in her behalf by others and is also key to to other services. Fortunately in this case the medical doctors noticed the hallucinations and overruled the psychiatrist's determination of her condition and competency to make rational decisions. Otherwise, the hospital could not keep her there against her will. |
#16
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posted to rec.boats
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Mr. Luddite wrote:
I feel badly for my wife and her sister. Both have been the primary care givers for their elderly parents for many years. Their father passed away a little over a year ago and the demands of taking care of their mother have been ever increasing since. The mother is *very* old school Italian and doesn't trust doctors, hospitals or social workers. She is 90 years old now and has adamantly refused any suggestion of moving into assisted living or a nursing home. She wants to remain in her house but my wife gets calls from her constantly day and night complaining about something or demanding that my wife go to the store for her or help take car of her dog. They have arranged for professional social workers and nursing help to visit daily (their mother is also diabetic) but the mother keeps kicking them out, accusing them of stealing things or simply complaining about them. Two weeks ago something happened and the mother called 911, was transported to the hospital but then refused any medical services. One of her legs had swelled up and was bleeding. My wife requested a psychiatric evaluation and the psychiatrist declared that the mother was fine and was capable of making decisions. So, she was released. The medical docs can't keep people against their will. Then, two days ago it happened again. This time my wife called 911 and the mother was whisked off to the hospital again. Same thing after she arrived ... refused treatment. Again, she was evaluated by a psychiatrist who determined her to be "fine" mentally. Then the medical docs called and reported that the mother was experiencing hallucinations. They also, despite the shrink's evaluation declared the mother as being "incompetent" regarding making decisions which now puts the onus on my wife and her sister to determine what's in her best interests. At my wife's and her sister's insistence, they convinced the mother to stay in the hospital and allow a few tests to be conducted. The docs quietly sedated her to make her more cooperative. A CAT scan followed by a full body MRI revealed she has a brain tumor the size of a golf ball in her head and a life-threatening clot in the swollen leg. The docs have given her 3 months, max. So, one of the two issues is going to do her in, the clot or the brain tumor. A procedure to minimize the clot threat is available but it involves risk and all it will do is buy a little time for someone who doesn't have much time left and who's quality of life is dismal. Tough decision for the kids. It's not my place to advise, but I know what I'd do. That's tough. I lost my mother to a blood clot in her leg that moved to her lung. She waited far too long to see a doctor about the clot - three days earlier and she might still be around. Her mind was solid but she procrastinated when there were hard decisions after my father died. When she was in the ICU different doctors gave us different opinions. There also seemed to be a lack of communication between the doctors, specialists, and ICU nurses. I really wanted to move her to a bigger, and hopefully better, hospital but that wasn't an option in her condition. It's a shame there is nothing they can do for the tumor. It probably has everything to do with her behavior. If she is otherwise healthy, a second opinion couldn't hurt. One thing I've learned is that medicine is far more subjective than I ever thought. |
#17
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posted to rec.boats
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On 3/18/2015 8:14 PM, Someone wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote: I feel badly for my wife and her sister. Both have been the primary care givers for their elderly parents for many years. Their father passed away a little over a year ago and the demands of taking care of their mother have been ever increasing since. The mother is *very* old school Italian and doesn't trust doctors, hospitals or social workers. She is 90 years old now and has adamantly refused any suggestion of moving into assisted living or a nursing home. She wants to remain in her house but my wife gets calls from her constantly day and night complaining about something or demanding that my wife go to the store for her or help take car of her dog. They have arranged for professional social workers and nursing help to visit daily (their mother is also diabetic) but the mother keeps kicking them out, accusing them of stealing things or simply complaining about them. Two weeks ago something happened and the mother called 911, was transported to the hospital but then refused any medical services. One of her legs had swelled up and was bleeding. My wife requested a psychiatric evaluation and the psychiatrist declared that the mother was fine and was capable of making decisions. So, she was released. The medical docs can't keep people against their will. Then, two days ago it happened again. This time my wife called 911 and the mother was whisked off to the hospital again. Same thing after she arrived ... refused treatment. Again, she was evaluated by a psychiatrist who determined her to be "fine" mentally. Then the medical docs called and reported that the mother was experiencing hallucinations. They also, despite the shrink's evaluation declared the mother as being "incompetent" regarding making decisions which now puts the onus on my wife and her sister to determine what's in her best interests. At my wife's and her sister's insistence, they convinced the mother to stay in the hospital and allow a few tests to be conducted. The docs quietly sedated her to make her more cooperative. A CAT scan followed by a full body MRI revealed she has a brain tumor the size of a golf ball in her head and a life-threatening clot in the swollen leg. The docs have given her 3 months, max. So, one of the two issues is going to do her in, the clot or the brain tumor. A procedure to minimize the clot threat is available but it involves risk and all it will do is buy a little time for someone who doesn't have much time left and who's quality of life is dismal. Tough decision for the kids. It's not my place to advise, but I know what I'd do. That's tough. I lost my mother to a blood clot in her leg that moved to her lung. She waited far too long to see a doctor about the clot - three days earlier and she might still be around. Her mind was solid but she procrastinated when there were hard decisions after my father died. When she was in the ICU different doctors gave us different opinions. There also seemed to be a lack of communication between the doctors, specialists, and ICU nurses. I really wanted to move her to a bigger, and hopefully better, hospital but that wasn't an option in her condition. It's a shame there is nothing they can do for the tumor. It probably has everything to do with her behavior. If she is otherwise healthy, a second opinion couldn't hurt. One thing I've learned is that medicine is far more subjective than I ever thought. It seems to be becoming more subjective with more knowledge. My wife's mother is 90 years old and in deteriorating health. She's a diabetic and requires daily insulin shots. We were also told today that it appears her kidneys are starting to fail. All things considered, it is obvious that she is entering the final, end of life stages. The question on the table now is where should she go ... home, nursing home or should we take her in at our house. The hospice people are excellent in educating family members who are not familiar with the signs and symptoms of impending death. I learned a lot from them with both my father and my mother as they went through the process of dying. One of the conflicting issues in our health care system ... be it hospitals or even nursing homes ... is the objectives and mission of health providers (doctors, nurses, etc.) and those trained to make the dying process natural and as comfortable as possible (Hospice). The medical people's objective is to save lives and respond to any life threatening situations. The hospice people provide comfort and care to allow the process to proceed. All a doctor can do ethically is to "recommend" hospice when he knows the time is drawing near. |
#18
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Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/18/2015 8:14 PM, Someone wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: I feel badly for my wife and her sister. Both have been the primary care givers for their elderly parents for many years. Their father passed away a little over a year ago and the demands of taking care of their mother have been ever increasing since. The mother is *very* old school Italian and doesn't trust doctors, hospitals or social workers. She is 90 years old now and has adamantly refused any suggestion of moving into assisted living or a nursing home. She wants to remain in her house but my wife gets calls from her constantly day and night complaining about something or demanding that my wife go to the store for her or help take car of her dog. They have arranged for professional social workers and nursing help to visit daily (their mother is also diabetic) but the mother keeps kicking them out, accusing them of stealing things or simply complaining about them. Two weeks ago something happened and the mother called 911, was transported to the hospital but then refused any medical services. One of her legs had swelled up and was bleeding. My wife requested a psychiatric evaluation and the psychiatrist declared that the mother was fine and was capable of making decisions. So, she was released. The medical docs can't keep people against their will. Then, two days ago it happened again. This time my wife called 911 and the mother was whisked off to the hospital again. Same thing after she arrived ... refused treatment. Again, she was evaluated by a psychiatrist who determined her to be "fine" mentally. Then the medical docs called and reported that the mother was experiencing hallucinations. They also, despite the shrink's evaluation declared the mother as being "incompetent" regarding making decisions which now puts the onus on my wife and her sister to determine what's in her best interests. At my wife's and her sister's insistence, they convinced the mother to stay in the hospital and allow a few tests to be conducted. The docs quietly sedated her to make her more cooperative. A CAT scan followed by a full body MRI revealed she has a brain tumor the size of a golf ball in her head and a life-threatening clot in the swollen leg. The docs have given her 3 months, max. So, one of the two issues is going to do her in, the clot or the brain tumor. A procedure to minimize the clot threat is available but it involves risk and all it will do is buy a little time for someone who doesn't have much time left and who's quality of life is dismal. Tough decision for the kids. It's not my place to advise, but I know what I'd do. That's tough. I lost my mother to a blood clot in her leg that moved to her lung. She waited far too long to see a doctor about the clot - three days earlier and she might still be around. Her mind was solid but she procrastinated when there were hard decisions after my father died. When she was in the ICU different doctors gave us different opinions. There also seemed to be a lack of communication between the doctors, specialists, and ICU nurses. I really wanted to move her to a bigger, and hopefully better, hospital but that wasn't an option in her condition. It's a shame there is nothing they can do for the tumor. It probably has everything to do with her behavior. If she is otherwise healthy, a second opinion couldn't hurt. One thing I've learned is that medicine is far more subjective than I ever thought. It seems to be becoming more subjective with more knowledge. My wife's mother is 90 years old and in deteriorating health. She's a diabetic and requires daily insulin shots. We were also told today that it appears her kidneys are starting to fail. All things considered, it is obvious that she is entering the final, end of life stages. The question on the table now is where should she go ... home, nursing home or should we take her in at our house. The hospice people are excellent in educating family members who are not familiar with the signs and symptoms of impending death. I learned a lot from them with both my father and my mother as they went through the process of dying. One of the conflicting issues in our health care system ... be it hospitals or even nursing homes ... is the objectives and mission of health providers (doctors, nurses, etc.) and those trained to make the dying process natural and as comfortable as possible (Hospice). The medical people's objective is to save lives and respond to any life threatening situations. The hospice people provide comfort and care to allow the process to proceed. All a doctor can do ethically is to "recommend" hospice when he knows the time is drawing near. My mother died in the ICU. She had a living will with a DNR if "extraordinary measures" would only delay imminent death. They followed the DNR and didn't try to resuscitate her when her heart stopped. They did ask us for that approval and we had no choice but to let her go since her kidneys had also failed and weren't responding to dialysis. She was intubated and in a chemically-induced coma so she, hopefully, felt no pain. My father died while in Hospice after a few days. It was a nice facility that was set up like a normal bedroom. We were called in the AM and told to head over there. He lasted maybe an hour after we arrived. I still wonder if they play with the morphine a bit to adjust the timing of the outcome but you might be right and they just see the signs. It didn't really matter except that I'm glad we were there for him (or us?). I'm sorry you and your wife have to go through this. 90 years is a great run. |
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